Castle Paradox

[Uncommon]

[Newbie_Power]

[msw188]

What makes Crono the center of the story of Chrono Trigger? I remember when we were discussing this in my other thread, one of the comments brought up (I think it was Iblis) that really stuck out to me was something like:

(paraphrasing here) Crono is in no way central to the story. Everyone else is. Marle's pendant is crucial; Lucca creates the gate key; Crono, on the other hand, could be swapped with any old person and the story would go fine.

I'll add that Robo is questionable, but at least he is the only robot with a conscience and so is the only way that the party can get where they have to get to in the future. I'm not sure why you consider Crono the center of the story; jokes aside, the name should have nothing to do with it. And I'd also like to agree that silent heroes and 'non-central' heroes do not have to be the same thing, I was just thinking that having the player control a 'non-central' hero may make it easier to have the player controlling a silent character, while still allowing for a well-developed story.

Also, to Newbie Power, no reason to STFU. I'm actually really glad I thought about your comments and eventually got to the Fairy Water thought. I've pretty much convinced myself that such an item is a great idea, just as central as warping items to RPG exploration, and I've been thinking about the easiest way to implement it in my next game.
_________________
My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161

This website link is for my funk/rock band, Euphonic Brew:
www.euphonicbrew.com

[Moogle1]

[msw188]

[J.A.R.S.]

I think frustration is one good feeling to have in an rpg now that you mention it. If an obstacle isn't remotely frustrating, then, it is perhaps because it is too easy, which in turns, doesn't make the player feel great about succeeding. I think the whole point of exploration is to gauge that frustration, but it must not lead to mindless frustration where the player is brought to consider it a waste of his own time... Anyone can make a battle thats just too difficult having a hero lv1 face the final boss... likewise, anyone can make exploration a pain by making a large world with no recognizable points and toss the player in. But that's just botching, so to come back to the issue, I think a lack of guidelines in exploration is acceptable when compensated by elements which will decrease the frustration level accordingly, while not completly deleting it. Practically, putting various locations (not necessarily places you can go into, but graphical features along the way which makes the journey both most interesting and easier to gear around). That, of course, is said as a sole reflection and opinion on an utopian game I personally never played. Can't say I've played any games solely based on exploration, nor rpgs that truly relied on it much... What exactly is Iblis' concern? or is it purely rhetorical?

[Newbie_Power]

I'm just going to start over from Square 1:

No matter what game you are making, Zelda, RPG, Platformer, etc... Any kind of exploration can only benefit your game, to any extent. If the player can feel like that he found something on his own, without an NPC having to tell him where it is, then that is exploration.

[Moogle1]

JARS, you might want to look up "frustration" -- it means anger or dissatisfaction arising from inability to fulfill a need. This is not something you want.

Newbie, again, I disagree. I could make a huge map where you are forced to "explore" to find anything. This would be awful. I do agree that the feeling of satisfaction that comes from discovery is definitely a bonus to any game, but don't mistake cause and effect here. Exploration is only good insofar as it results in that satisfaction (ditto random battles and so on).
_________________

Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

[J.A.R.S.]

so if I read you well, you're 100% into it. No limitations, at all?

[Newbie_Power]

That's not what I meant and you know it.

I meant, even if there is a vast amount of limitations on being able to go places, even if you can search even the small places you can search in, that is exploration. It goes with what you said about having stuff to do in places rather than the overworld map.

[J.A.R.S.]

[Newbie_Power]

Obsession? Infaturated?

Anyway, if this:

[J.A.R.S.]

I think you have the wrong impression about me. I argue a lot about my position, and I try damn hard to defend it, but I do bear in mind what other people say. I wasn't trying to ridicule your position if that's what you're thinking?
And I didn't know exactly what you meant which is why I made an extreme comment so you could explain it better. I think I'm getting a broader view of your interpretation, but its hard to define... my meager english skills aren't particularly effective when it comes to decipher the abstract :S

[Newbie_Power]

Shh... I'm talking to Moogle1.

[msw188]

Well, we've discussed this and argued a bit, but I'm not sure how much we've offered to help with the original questions (I'll repeat them here):

1. Under what circumstances is a lack of direction okay?
2. What types of direction least interfere with exploration?
3. What makes exploration fun to do?

I tried to offer a few suggestions in the direction of 3:
3A: Make sure exploration is dangerous, yet easily escapable using a combination of random battles, large areas, and the ability to warp back to town
3B: Have an item that makes easy random battles avoidable
Moogle1 seems to think that this sort of exploration is not as fun as exploring towns, events, puzzles, mini-games, etc. I must admit I'm having trouble working out exactly what JARS and Newbie Power feel to be fun kinds of exploration.

As for 1, a lack of direction almost seems to be the definition of exploring. 1 and 2 seem to need combined into the question:
4. What is the proper balance of direction (more the lack of direction, perhaps) that makes exploration fun?
I tried to get at this with my little bit about 'indirect direction' (various hints as opposed to directions). This question also pertains to [what I believe to be] Moogle1's preferred types of exploration above.

Concerning 'hints', here is a question. Can we use non-textual hints? I'm not even sure what sorts of hints these would be. Graphical ones, perhaps? Physical ones? If a player is looking for X that dies in the sunlight, is the appearance of a cave a good enough physical/graphical hint that X is probably in there? If the player is looking for Y that needs a lot of sunlight, is a path up the mountain (that clearly goes above the clouds) a good enough physical/graphical hint that Y is probably up there?

I also noticed another thing rereading the thread. Iblis suggested for 3 that the world should be graphically interesting. I disagree, especially since I agree with him on the original Legend of Zelda being a pretty fun exploration game.

Yet another paragraph - we haven't discussed the reward factor a whole lot. Material rewards (treasures) are the easiest to consider, and were going to be the topic of the thread I was contemplating before this thread came along (what sorts of things ought to be in treasure chests that are off the beaten path?). But I'm sure there's more than just material rewards. Shortcuts to different places can be a fun reward for exploration. Extra story is even sometimes enough to make a little exploration seem worthwhile (although it is probably not enough for seriously dangerous exploration). What other rewards can we think of?

As usual, my post ended up way too long. Here are the questions I'm trying to pose:
4. What is the proper balance of direction (more the lack of direction, perhaps) that makes exploration fun?
5. What kinds of non-textual hints are possible to help players explore?
6. Why are interesting graphics important to exploring being enjoyable?
7. What sorts of things ought to be in treasure chests that are off the beaten path?
8. What other kinds of rewards can we think of for exploration?
_________________
My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161

This website link is for my funk/rock band, Euphonic Brew:
www.euphonicbrew.com