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Castle Paradox
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Gizmog1 wrote: | | Moogle mentioned that game designers tend to favor humans because of some kind of Species Pride, but by that logic, I'd wager the folks down at Wizards of the Coast are of Elven descent. |
I don't recall saying that. If I did, I didn't mean it. I think I said that designers make humans middle-of-the-road because that's their frame of reference. Depending on the system, this can favor humans or not.
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Gizmog1
Don't Lurk In The Bushes!
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
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Location: Lurking In The Bushes!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| I was paraphrasing considerably, but I think it makes sense if they're making humans an option, they'd make them middle of the road. If they were gonna make humans the worst option, why even bother adding them? Why not go for the gusto, and create races and species so much more fantastic that no one would WANT to be human? |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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I think I'll make a game someday where humans are by far the superior species, but you can't play as them.
...okay, so maybe they'll be unlockable.
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Mr B
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 382
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Moogle1 wrote: | I think I'll make a game someday where humans are by far the superior species, but you can't play as them.
...okay, so maybe they'll be unlockable. |
...
This must transpire.
| Jack wrote: | | Have you ever played an actual DnD RPG? Humans are always the balanced race. They can chose any class, and are adept at all skills. You just have to actually work at it 25% more to catch up with the pure breds. |
Er...no. I've played a few D20-based games (the KotORs and Angband), but never DnD.
Angband had an interesting method of dealing with human average-ness. Humans need the fewest XP to level. all the other races require different amounts of additional XP, some of them a great deal (High-Elves needed 200% XP, I believe). This was done for some of the classes as well (Warriors needed base XP, Paladins 35% over base, or somesuch).
I don't know if that's a rare or frequent way to do things, but it was an interesting attempt to make humans more interesting. They aren't as useful, but they don't need to be exposed to as much. It probably doesn't make up for it, though.
| Shaede wrote: | | Many games do. In the case of pen and paper games, though, it's up to the skill of the game master to be able to handle that. |
I've never had the pleasure of playing a pen and paper game, I'm afraid. What are some games that would make good use of this flexability? |
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Jack
the fool
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 773
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr B wrote: |
Angband had an interesting method of dealing with human average-ness. Humans need the fewest XP to level. all the other races require different amounts of additional XP, some of them a great deal (High-Elves needed 200% XP, I believe). This was done for some of the classes as well (Warriors needed base XP, Paladins 35% over base, or somesuch). |
I've never heard XP handled like that anywhere. Interesting, though.
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msw188
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 1041
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Will we ever have hero-by-hero customizable EXP systems in the OHR? I'd very much like it. All of the Dragon Warrior games worked in this way, and it really did feel like it made a difference. Breath of Fire games, as well. This was one of the things I didn't like about FF III, that all characters levelled up in the same way. |
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Nepenthe
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 132
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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The biggest advantage for humans in DnD is the extra feat at first level. This means that they can take some prestige classes several levels before other races. Additionally, Humans have no EXP penalty for mulitclassing, so you can get where you want to be (characterwise) faster.
(I'm referencing the NWN guide, sorry if it's different in the source.)
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Shaede
Tuck in your shirt.
Joined: 08 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I've never had the pleasure of playing a pen and paper game, I'm afraid. What are some games that would make good use of this flexability? |
Of the major pen and paper systems, I think I fell the most im love with the design of the White Wolf system. Though not a huge fan of the genre (gothic theme, vampires, witchcraft), the organization of information was brilliant.
Of course, this system handed humans primarily (with vampires and werewolves being additional information on the base human character sheet), but it seemed to represent humanity at it's best.
First of all was the organization of stats. It fit into an orderly chart:
Physical, Mental, and Social Strength
Physical, Mental, and Social Dextarity
Physical, Mental, and Social Endurance
I forget the exact names used per stat (such as Bearing, Wit, and so forth), but this laid the foundation for quite a lot of creativity. Most of your actions would be based on several of your stats (and skills) with a heavy enphasis on roleplaying. For example swinging a raipier could combine your physical strength and dextarity, where as charming a girl with humor might be a combination of social strength and mental dextarity.
Layered on top were skills and talents that further descibed how your character played out. Then, other supernatural powers and limitations would be added if you became a vampire or werewolf. This included magical abilities that might drain your blood supply or the possibility of losing your humanity and going insane. Will power came into play as well, allowing you to give and extra umph when you want to, but requiring you to pleasure yourself with one of your vurtures or vices to restore it.
This might not be the best example of an RP system ultimatly, though, since it focuses on the human race almost exclusively. Nonetheless, it represents a wide range of capabilities of the human race that are completely dependant on the competance of the game master. |
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Dr. Baconman
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
Location: The Base, TN
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: Oh? |
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This sounds a lot like the dilemma found in Dungeons & Dragons.
Save for the Martian bit. |
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Me
HI.
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 870
Location: MY CUSTOM TITLE CAME BACK
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Bringing this back from the dead, but it's a great great topic so it's fine.
I recently re-installed and fired up The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind after a long break. It's an excellent game, although I personally have trouble getting "into" it - blame impatience and laziness on my part, I guess. I also purchased the newest in the series, Oblivion. Bethesda does a very interesting thing with races: they are not divided on species lines. Rather, we have no less than four races of humans and four races of elves, along with the requisite furries and scalies. The thing is though, none of the human races are "average" - Bretons are magic-focused, Imperials are personality/merchant-focused, Nords are the heavy troops, and Redguards are the fast attackers. In fact, every race in the game is unique in terms of its combat and social abilities.
I think a page could be taken out of Bethesda's book here. If we divide up the roles in a game to more than just fighter, thief, and mage and allow for more specialization, it's easy to make up ways in which humans could be distinctive. Also, not enough people have dealt with race as it exists in the real world in games. If you look, almost all the time, everyone is white. Or northern asian. Pale-skinned, I mean. Humans, and every other humanoid species in your game, should exist in a multitude of shades, shapes, and sizes!
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LeRoy_Leo
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Joined: 24 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Moogle1 wrote: | I think I'll make a game someday where humans are by far the superior species, but you can't play as them.
...okay, so maybe they'll be unlockable. |
Why can't all races be equal? Or balanced some way. You know what I'm saying, right?
And I want to give Me a shout out. You are correct, sir! Although I have to give kudos to the MMORPGs. They allow for customization of skin color among other things. But you are still painfully right.
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| LeRoy_Leo wrote: | | Moogle1 wrote: | I think I'll make a game someday where humans are by far the superior species, but you can't play as them.
...okay, so maybe they'll be unlockable. |
Why can't all races be equal? Or balanced some way. You know what I'm saying, right? |
You are missing my point (and the entire thread's, to a lesser extent). Go back and read my earlier posts to see my views on racial balance in games.
But to better illustrate the point you're trying to debate, who in this world is greater than a human? Humans are the most intelligent animal on the planet and have excellent strength, stamina, willpower, sturdiness, and agility relative to other animals. Add to that tool-using and tool-inventing and you have the best race on the planet. Why must all races be equal? Or even balanced in any way?
(Further reading: http://rinku.livejournal.com/690994.html -- this is very old, so don't reply to the comments)
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LeRoy_Leo
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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I read all that a long time ago. I went back and read it all again, and I realize what you are saying.
And to the ends of "humans are the best race on this planet", I agree with you. Humans are pretty miraculous. I don't want to sound all philosophical, but, who's to say there isn't a more intelligent, powerful, ambitious people somewhere in this universe? Regardless, I believe that no matter how smart, strong, or whatever all people in this universe were created with the same amount of potential.
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"Seriously James, you keep rolling out the awesome like gingerbread men on a horror-movie assembly line. " |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: |
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...
Define "people."
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Fenrir-Lunaris
WUT
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 1747
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Moogle1 wrote: | ...
Define "people." |
Any entity which possesses the following:
*Consciousness,
*The ability to steer one's attention and action purposively,
*Self-awareness, self-bonded to objectivities (existing independently of the subject's perception of it),
*Self as longitudinal thematic identity, one's biographic identity.
I fail to see the rationale between having multiple races having to all be balanced. Evolution favors (A) Diversity and (B)IMbalance, in deciding what species are fit, and which are not. A planet with multiple species all competing for the same resources will inevitably give rise to whichever one is best suited to take them. In Earth's case, the superspecies happens to be Human beings, mostly due to our intelligence, tool use, and capability to work in organized groups. |
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