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I WANNA SELL MY GAMES.
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Ronin Catholic
Deadliest of Fairies

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 530
Location: My Girlfriend

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:49 pm Post subject:

Buy my game: https://cheeseforge.itch.io/athe-quest It sells for one dollar and is worth every penny. Sometimes I put it on sale for 69% off to be funny and also this gives you a chance to get it for a steal. Keep an eye on it if you want to save yourself a couple quarters. Tipping is not just acceptable, but encouraged. _________________ "I didn't start the flame war; I don't know what you thought here 'Twas that way when I got here" "I didn't start the flame war; I can't understand a word you're saying nor the game you're playing~"

Charbile

Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 106
Location: Blythewood

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:57 pm Post subject:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

The Real Steps!

blah blah blah

STEP ZERO:

Ronin Catholic
Deadliest of Fairies

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 530
Location: My Girlfriend

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:48 am Post subject:

Charbile wrote:

STEP ZERO:

And most people in this community are too caught up on making a game specifically to impress other members of the community and forget to make the game good in general.

Flashy scripting to reinvent the basic navigation and text display can impress people who know about the coding language, but mean nothing to anyone who isn't a developer within the engine's community.

Big walkabouts can give you room to give better character expressions and body language, but just making 30 or 40 pixel tall stickmen and robots for the sake of making them taller than a single map tile doesn't really accomplish anything beyond making them taller than 20 pixels.

Incestuous community in-jokes like every milkshake being a secret milkshake, dinosaurs always coming in triples, and cameos from forum-goers as NPCs in your games can be quite distracting and confusing to anyone not in the know already.

Basically, never forget that any game can be someone's first - I apparently did a good enough job with the way OHRodents presented its murine cast that people who'd never seen an OHR game before were able to follow along just fine.
_________________
"I didn't start the flame war;
I don't know what you thought here
'Twas that way when I got here"

"I didn't start the flame war;
I can't understand a word you're saying
nor the game you're playing~"

Spoon Weaver

Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 421
Location: @home

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:05 pm Post subject:

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Charbile wrote:

STEP ZERO:

A wise men once said, listen not to the fisherman for lesson in woodcutting.

There's also, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

You're throwing around a lot of hate and criticism for someone known to do exactly what you're preaching.
Where's your big walkabouts game?
Aren't most of your games "in-jokes"?

Charbile

Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 106
Location: Blythewood

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject:

As is the ancient flame custom, i shall now line by line you.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

And most people in this community are too caught up on making a game specifically to impress other members of the community and forget to make the game good in general.

I often make games with other ohr users as the target audience for contests. It's important to have an audience in mind when selling games. It's even more important to be a part of that audience. Never make a game you wouldn't want to play if someone else made it.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Flashy scripting to reinvent the basic navigation and text display can impress people who know about the coding language, but mean nothing to anyone who isn't a developer within the engine's community.

True, but so is non developers being unimpressed with basic navigation and text displays too.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Big walkabouts can give you room to give better character expressions and body language, but just making 30 or 40 pixel tall stickmen and robots for the sake of making them taller than a single map tile doesn't really accomplish anything beyond making them taller than 20 pixels.

this is technically very true--do you have something against characters fatter than the basic tile size??

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Incestuous community in-jokes like every milkshake being a secret milkshake, dinosaurs always coming in triples, and cameos from forum-goers as NPCs in your games can be quite distracting and confusing to anyone not in the know already.

with that, i don't believe the intent was ever to sell the game or humor anyone outside the in jokes, though

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Basically, never forget that any game can be someone's first - I apparently did a good enough job with the way OHRodents presented its murine cast that people who'd never seen an OHR game before were able to follow along just fine.

but what can you do to turn OHRodents into a commercial game?

Spoon Weaver

Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 421
Location: @home

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:27 pm Post subject:

My game will sell much more than yours! My game is so great it can get up and walk, right through a door! With a concept so pure, it'll have you screaming back for more! Last edited by Spoon Weaver on Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total

Ronin Catholic
Deadliest of Fairies

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 530
Location: My Girlfriend

Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:06 am Post subject:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

There's also, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

There is also the statement "remove the plank from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from your brother's eye". I've recently removed a plank from my eye and see a lot of things more clearly than I did before.

Spoon Weaver wrote:

You're throwing around a lot of hate and criticism for someone known to do exactly what you're preaching.

Criticism is different from hate; I'd expect you to know this already, that picking apart the flaws of a work are not the same thing as attacking the person of the artist. Criticism also isn't always negative; when the big bold changes actually work, I praise them for working but when the changes add nothing or subtract something, I point out how I believe they fail and why.

Being known for or having a reputation for something is not the same as actually being that way (for example, every single stereotype in history; a number of people in a group do something, the group receives a reputation, members of that group are associated with it going forward whether or not they were ever part of it or if the character of the group has actually changed and rendered the stereotype obsolete). In the case of the things I'm criticizing here, experience with trying them and learning thy largely don't work or ought to be lower in priority is the main trend.

They also say you don't need to be a professional chef to make an informed statement that food tastes bad. I have a lot of experience playing games made by this community and have seen many common and repeated pitfalls.

Iron sharpens iron.

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Where's your big walkabouts game?

My most recent upload to the gamelist. The hero is 30 pixels tall, the same size in and out of battle. I also decided to experiment and give the game a non-standard screen resolution just because that's something the cool kids were doing; finding it broke a lot of things and added nothing, I reverted this decision and went back to 320x200 when updating the game for itch.io.

And as I've never implied that bigger walkabouts are bad, only that they are unnecessary by default and not innately impressive of themselves.

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Aren't most of your games "in-jokes"?

Experience is the best teacher; games consisting largely of community in-jokes don't get a lot of feedback within the community anyway but sometimes do get me plenty of engagement outside of it.

No Eat didn't require any familiarity with the OHR community even if it was spurred on by an in-community meme to be developed in the first place; most of the feedback I got for it had to do with new players not knowing to open the equipment menu after beating the first boss and getting a weapon or with finding specific monsters irritating to fight, and so when revising to upload the game to other webspaces I made some alterations regarding those as well as a minor graphical overhaul and the addition of music.

OHRodents was one I didn't expect to receive as much attention outside of the OHR community as it did. Its goals were threefold:
- Demonstrate basic RPG mechanics functioning with small numbers
- Demonstrate the tone and theme of being a tiny creature in a world full of large and dangerous predators
- Make reference to a bunch of character designs from the community with a common element (rodents), some of them so obscure I was basically the only person aware of and familiar with them beforehand

I figured that since I needed to introduce some of the characters with some minimal demonstration of their personalities, I'd need to do so with the other characters as well and gave roughly equal treatment to all of them in my estimation. Evidently, I did this well enough that complete newcomers to the community didn't get lost.

Charbile wrote:

This I wholeheartedly agree with. My current three most successful games were each made with an audience of exactly one person: myself. It had the benefit of being applicable to a wider audience as nothing I like is unique to me alone, however strange it may be.

No Eat and Vore Day RPG don't really need an explanation as far as why they were made focusing on things I wanted first and foremost. Both absolutely were the kind of content I would, at the time of development, have actively sought out and played if developed by someone else. The longing for more such content is not leaving any time soon, but I'm abstaining from indulging or supplying such. They are also the most resounding successes of all works I have produced.

Athe Quest was made by me built around nostalgia for the older and simpler days of making OHR games as a passion project about loving RPGs and having new fun software to make them in. Adhering to both the letter and the spirit of the contest I made it for, I thought back to my earlier sprite work when I didn't know how the engine worked (the most obvious being the characters facing towards the screen rather than towards the enemies in battle) and recreating that style with better techniques I've learned over the years. The game's simple battle mechanics and flexible character growth have, I feel, lead to a very well-balanced and fun experience, and the character writing having enough depth to relate to while not being so long-winded as to become a hindrance. I feel this game in particular is what's showed me the direction I need to take for future games I make.

And not in that three is OHRodents; the reception of that game still surprises me sometimes, such as the new user whose debut was to insert his own mouse OC into the game as an additional party member. The theme of "tiny mice in a normal-sized world" being broadly applicable enough to attract new blood on its own merits.

I'd consider my two biggest recent disappointments to be Trytuges and TutOHRial - the former mostly from balance issues and a very rough, rushed ending and the latter being almost exactly the primer I'd have wanted eighteen years ago but mostly choking on the sheer volume of text contained within.

Charbile wrote:

this is technically very true--do you have something against characters fatter than the basic tile size??

I do, actually. Characters a little taller than an average tile have a lot of added functionality as I stated for expressiveness or adding some realism to a character's proportions; characters wider than a tile require more steps of extra work to keep from overlapping each other or clipping through objects. The more different ways a character's sprite can pass through a wall, furniture, large blades of grass, and so on the more chances there are for the illusion (which is what all visual art is, ultimately) to fail when they don't interact correctly.

I wouldn't even say that characters with a width greater than the tiles they stand on are bad, only caution people to be very careful with elements sticking out too far. The more they deviate, the more special care is needed to function. And people all have finite man-hours to put into a project, so if the developer deems the extra effort worthwhile for the presentation benefits, so be it.

Charbile wrote:

but what can you do to turn OHRodents into a commercial game?

I could re-use and revamp many of its visual and audio assets and replace the OHRRPGCE community characters with rodent characters of my own design (I don't have a shortage), making another game themed on being a tiny and mostly-helpless prey creature running from predators with small numbers on display, were I to want to make it commercial.

I would be more inclined to largely start over if making another such game, but there are a lot of things from it transferrable to another project. The experience, more than anything.

If I ever make this fabled "Karrible 2" that people recently took to begging me for out of nowhere? That would be another game clearly designed from the outset to entertain (and probably also infuriate) the OHR community (and primarily, amuse myself) with no intention of ever becoming a commercial product.
_________________
"I didn't start the flame war;
I don't know what you thought here
'Twas that way when I got here"

"I didn't start the flame war;
I can't understand a word you're saying
nor the game you're playing~"

Spoon Weaver

Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 421
Location: @home

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:27 am Post subject:

Line by line fun!

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

There's also, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I'm glad to hear you're seeing better. Hopefully, you'll see the light one day.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

You're throwing around a lot of hate and criticism for someone known to do exactly what you're preaching.

You're talking as if I'm not speaking of anything specific and don't know who you are.
I'm speaking mainly of your outburst on the heart of the ohr voting thread where you turned game reviews into speaking about anti-religious topics and blaming ohr game devs for your life choices.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Where's your big walkabouts game?

"Unnecessary" is a really weird thing to say. You seem to think games are meant to be a very specific way instead of wild and crazy and all over the place. Which is odd coming from the maker of Vore Day RPG. Every little thing you can add to a game is something the player can experience and enjoy. None of it is necessary, and yet all of it is. You can paint a picture with just 1 paint brush, but there are a multitude of different brush sizes and styles that you could choose from. It's only necessary to use 1 paint brush, 1 color, 1 source of inspiration, and even 1 hand while painting. That's not what the great artists in history have ever done though.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Aren't most of your games "in-jokes"?

I see what you're missing.
So, in-jokes are something a group of people will understand and people outside that group would look at and struggle to understand.
Most normal people would look at your games and struggle to understand them.
In-jokes shared by a bigger community, like furries, doesn't make them not in-jokes.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Charbile wrote:

this is technically very true--do you have something against characters fatter than the basic tile size??

Charbile wrote:

but what can you do to turn OHRodents into a commercial game?

Well, most of this is for charbile..
but I'll reply anyways

First, it sounds like you're flip-slopping on the issue of making games as in-jokes as you directly say you make all your games for just you., The ultimate in-joke is one you only tell yourself.

Second, you flip-flop on bigger character sprites basically admitting they add to a game and you're just too lazy, which you phase as having "finite man-hours". I didn't realize you were so busy, I guess I wasn't paying attention since I was working a full time job and taking care of 2 kids.

Third, your talk of making a commercial seems out of place. I challenge you in much the same way I have Charbile. If you are at all good at what you do, you should be able to get a game on Steam by the end of the year. I'm willing to bet a fair amount against you.

Ronin Catholic
Deadliest of Fairies

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 530
Location: My Girlfriend

Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:43 am Post subject:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Line by line fun!

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

There's also, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I'm glad to hear you're seeing better. Hopefully, you'll see the light one day.

I already see the light. I knew the true and right way to behave back when I was seventeen and gradually drifted away from it, both from seeking out my own pleasure and from listening to advice from "friends" like you.

And now that I've turned back to the right way of doing things, you're upset that I'm happier, healthier, and more willing to openly share what's improved my life instead of just staying quiet.

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

You're throwing around a lot of hate and criticism for someone known to do exactly what you're preaching.

Except, of course, that I never did either of those things. I gave measured, well-meaning criticisms to games I saw as flawed for any reason I saw them as flawed and praised the things I thought were good in them.

And I never blamed other OHR users for my poor life choices. I certainly made it clear I was influenced by some of them - with uncensored pornography included in certain games, I was influenced against my will. When I later started intentionally entering furry porn terms into Yahoo! and Google because I'd found I liked what I saw, that was my own doing and undoing.

And after feeling much better from a few months of abstaining from porn, I invited other people clearly suffering from deep-seated pornsickness to join me in drug withdrawal. It's not easy, but it's very rewarding. I expected basically what I got: Mild insults to my face and constant talking about me behind my back. Exactly the way this community has treated me since 2005, completely regardless of my behavior. I've been a punchline in this community no matter how polite and kind I've been and no matter how much I've tried to go along with the community's atmosphere - an atmosphere that in the past eight years or so has become particularly stifling and stale.

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Where's your big walkabouts game?

Yet more putting words in my mouth!
Spits
The issue here isn't that I'm proscriptive of people making sprites of non-standard sizes, or of choosing to make games in non-standard resolutions, or of using scripting to implement features not found in the base engine. The issue is more like your attitude expressed here, that somehow me not doing this more often is some terrible assault on the art form, or that me expressing an opinion that it's generally preferable to think of ways to work within the most easily accessible mechanics to make things function and prevent malfunctions which will hinder a player's experiences with a game is an attack on creativity in general.

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Aren't most of your games "in-jokes"?

Experience is the best teacher [...]

Nobody would struggle to understand Athe Quest, except maybe to ask why the art looks the way it does. OHRodents consisted of about half rodents basically nobody in the OHR community remembered aside from me, and people who really like media featuring mice being tiny loved it without needing to be familiar with the OHR community and pre-existing games.

In-jokes themselves aren't a problem. It's when the in-jokes act as a substitute for the main substance rather than a bonus on top of them that they get in the way; it's like I'm saying "there's too much dye in this frosting, I can taste the dye" and you respond by saying "Dying cake frosting is completely normal, there's nothing wrong with dying frosting you goon".

Or when the punchline of the in-joke actively hinders the way it's placed; I'm reminded of an old review of the early build of Vikings of Midgard where the reviewer pointed out how baffling it is for the Chaos Knight to be longing for a unified and peaceful community (due to the NPC being based on Castle Paradox's former administrator ChaosNyte). This is complete nonsense to anyone not familiar with the real person ChaosNyte and the history of this forum from what was it, 2004 through 2006? And that's the main target audience for Vikings of Midgard specifically: People who have never seen or heard of an OHRRPGCE game before, or at most maybe watched a Twitch streamer play a breakout hit like Megaman Sprite Game.

Spoon Weaver wrote:

First, it sounds like you're flip-slopping on the issue of making games as in-jokes as you directly say you make all your games for just you., The ultimate in-joke is one you only tell yourself.

Not flip-flopping, just having complicated and nuanced opinions.

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Second, you flip-flop on bigger character sprites basically admitting they add to a game and you're just too lazy, which you phase as having "finite man-hours". I didn't realize you were so busy, I guess I wasn't paying attention since I was working a full time job and taking care of 2 kids.

Calling me lazy because I don't put in extra bonus effort in all the areas of game making that you, personally, think I should? That's rich. Allocating my own work resources the way I see fit and making my own aesthetic artistic choices based on a combination of different factors? Wanting to make a game mechanically robust before later, if ever, adding extra visual flourishes? Why would I want to do these things when I can instead spend 20 hours making a single screenshot look more impressive but have no content for people to play?

And yes, I'm busy with having a life outside of games too. Games aren't the only art form I'm passionate about, either.

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Third, your talk of making a commercial seems out of place. I challenge you in much the same way I have Charbile. If you are at all good at what you do, you should be able to get a game on Steam by the end of the year. I'm willing to bet a fair amount against you.

Steam is a flooded market anyway. What would this accomplish beyond impressing you, only for you to immediately move the goalposts again and continue hurling insults at me?

You can safely keep your money because I don't even have any intent on trying to put a game on Steam in the foreseeable future. I don't need your approval and frankly, don't even want it.

Until your reaction to this spring, I used to think you were one of the few people in the community who at least sometimes was interested in my self-improvement and your occasional jabs at me were just friendly ribbing. After the display you put on in my final Slime Salad thread and coming over here for no reason but to rain on my parade, I can see more clearly that you've never liked me, and somehow you're desperate to show you're better than me as if others weren't always just taking that part for granted from day one.
_________________
"I didn't start the flame war;
I don't know what you thought here
'Twas that way when I got here"

"I didn't start the flame war;
I can't understand a word you're saying
nor the game you're playing~"

Swordplay
Be All End All

Joined: 20 May 2018
Posts: 0
Location: London holla at ya boi

Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:10 pm Post subject:

why are you guys talking down to each other? is this an in-joke?

Spoon Weaver

Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 421
Location: @home

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:43 pm Post subject:

So much line by lining!
FUN!

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Line by line fun!

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

There's also, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I'm glad to hear you're seeing better. Hopefully, you'll see the light one day.

If you're doing better I want nothing but for you to do better.
If you truly feel that the OHR was bad for you, then you should stop using it. If you think the community was bad in general then you should stop interacting with it. All seems fine to me. I think the see the light thing here was mostly trolling you a bit.
I've been taking this all in a light-hearted way and I hope you're doing the same.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

You're throwing around a lot of hate and criticism for someone known to do exactly what you're preaching.

Well this is all disheartening.
If you're against furry porn now then that's fine. I don't think anyone should begrudge you for regretting a game you made in the past or something to that affect. And having an issue with publicly posted pornography seems perfectly sensible. I'm sure a fair amount of people would agree if you were to request content be taken down due to pornographic images. I personally don't think there's any harm in any of it, but lots of people do. I don't think anyone in the OHR would fault you for not being ok with furry porn anymore.
I won't lie that you have been a punchline. Sorry if you feel cyber bullied. I've gotten my fair share of comments and punchlines aimed at me as well. It's not always fun, but the way I like to see it is that I've done enough to get people's attention so I must be doing something right. Attention is a very powerful thing. But I get that negative attention can be hard to deal with. Never stop being yourself. Do it loudly. Do it proudly.
Just, try not to ignore forum rules and get banned. There's ways to still be you without actively seeking a ban by digging up things that the moderators actively ask you to stop. You may have a very polarizing opinion and people on the other end of the spectrum may be less silenced than you if more places, but don't let it dishearten you, and keep an open mind whenever possible.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Where's your big walkabouts game?

Working "within" anything at all does sound like an attack on creativity. You're defining a box and you pick things to work within and creativity should be thinking outside the box.
In general, I don't actually mind you not scripting or anything like that. Games can be great without it.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Aren't most of your games "in-jokes"?

Experience is the best teacher [...]

Well yea vikings of midgard is a community game, first and foremost I'd say. If that's what we're talking about here, sure that game may suffer for it's in jokes if it was offered to the general audience of the world. However, where it's offered is as the OHR's flag ship game. It's a solid game, no one disagrees there. It's graphics are decent but more importantly free to us. And it's in jokes allow for a large number of members of the community to feel included in the flagship game as well as possibly familiarizing new ohrrpgce users with some of the members of the community in a slight way. I think it succeeds in a number of ways.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

First, it sounds like you're flip-slopping on the issue of making games as in-jokes as you directly say you make all your games for just you., The ultimate in-joke is one you only tell yourself.

Not flip-flopping, just having complicated and nuanced opinions.

You seem to have a lot of complicated opinions. Hopefully we can get to all of them.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Well yea, we can all only work on some many projects for so much time.
I was just sort of hassling you here. No real reason other than to make conversation.

Ronin Catholic wrote:

Spoon Weaver wrote:

Wow that got depressing.
I'm just engaging you. No more no less.
I do like you Nate. I disagree with a lot of your opinions, as I believe you've seen, but that doesn't mean I dislike you. The steam thing was me trying to light a fire under you.
The reaction in the forum this spring, where you got banned, I assume you're upset because I commented pretty jarringly after you posted some pretty intense political stuff on the game making forum. Even going as far to try to show you what you did in comic form, because you seemed genuinely confused why you were being treated the way you were.
If I went into a catholic church and started yelling about the true path of the Muslim people, I have shoes thrown at me or worse. Same goes if I preached anti-guns at a pro-gun gathering, or Hate for Trump at a Trump rally. You can't go into those sorts of situations, looking to oppose view points, and expect hugs and handshakes.
If you are going to spread your opinions than you have to be a warrior. You have to fight. You have to have honor, and you have to admit defeat when you are defeated. You have to be tough and not only be able to take what they throw at you when you attack. But you have to expect it when you do.

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