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Castle Paradox
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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 Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you can save anywhere, you can save in a position you can't get out of, and lose your game. That's just annoying. |
Honestly, if people are dumb enough to do this, they deserve to sit there and die. I'm sorry if I'm offending anybody, but it's a Darwinism curse to manage to screw yourself over with a type of save system that should allow you to prevent these sort of situations with relative ease.
I mean, if you absolutely need to quit the game at a time where it's dangerous, at least use a different save slot, just in case.
| Quote: | | The will of the game designer is secondary to making a game that is good. |
People need to stop trying to put players or designers above each other. They have to co-exist in balance and compromisation, and not try to be better than the other. Players are the reason games are made, but at the same time players are not the developers. The entitiy that is neither player or developer is marketing, which I feel can get in the way of games a little too much. We do not have marketing, so we have a little more freedom to make games we want to make, but at the same time make our visions enjoyable to others.
| Quote: | The Cleric Sisters, on the other hand, make me angry.
The Sister's gimmick is that they all summon two more when alone. Which means that you have to kill one, and VERY CAREFULLY manage the HP of the other two, so that you can kill them both with a spell. If you messed up the timing, or got a hit that bit more damage than you expected you had to basically start the whole fight over again. This meant the fight was not only hard, but very aggravating. |
You mention killing with a spell? If you have a Mage, then it may be in more of your interest to try to kill the first two, then quickly cast Death on the last one. Remember, reviving is not instant, and is an attack so you should wait and let the last Cleric attack before you kill the 2nd, then cast Death on the last.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Clamps
Slayer of the Moon
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Newbie_Power wrote: | | Honestly, if people are dumb enough to do this, they deserve to sit there and die. I'm sorry if I'm offending anybody, but it's a Darwinism curse to manage to screw yourself over with a type of save system that should allow you to prevent these sort of situations with relative ease. |
Beat Evil Fiend.
Save.
Leave Dungeon.
Surprise! A new boss appears!
Or an area that you can enter, but not leave until you fight the boss that comes out of nowhere when you try to leave (Final Fantasy Tactics was noted for this).
| Quote: | | People need to stop trying to put players or designers above each other. They have to co-exist in balance and compromisation, and not try to be better than the other. Players are the reason games are made, but at the same time players are not the developers. |
I'm not sure how much I agree with you. Game Designers should bow to every whim the player makes, of course, but who is the game being made for?
[quote="Newbie_Power"] | Quote: |
| Quote: | The Cleric Sisters, on the other hand, make me angry.
The Sister's gimmick is that they all summon two more when alone. Which means that you have to kill one, and VERY CAREFULLY manage the HP of the other two, so that you can kill them both with a spell. If you messed up the timing, or got a hit that bit more damage than you expected you had to basically start the whole fight over again. This meant the fight was not only hard, but very aggravating. |
You mention killing with a spell? If you have a Mage, then it may be in more of your interest to try to kill the first two, then quickly cast Death on the last one. Remember, reviving is not instant, and is an attack so you should wait and let the last Cleric attack before you kill the 2nd, then cast Death on the last. |
I beat them (at least, the original ones) on my second try. I didn't get stuck, so much as it felt kind of like I could be screwed over by bad luck. Which is partially true in any RPG, I guess. Were I making that boss, I'd have had them cast a spell of "Revive" element on themselves if alone, and they'd spawn two more sisters if hit by a revive-type spell (This would use a whole element, though I could use it for other Monster things, but as an example). It's the same gimmick, but now it's possible for players to beat it by wiping out all of the Cleric Sister's MP
(Of course, my first time, that's how I thought the game itself did it, and was 10 minutes into the fight before I was disabused of this notion, so I might possibly be more annoyed at that boss than many others would be).
I suppose I'd say I found it difficult, but not challenging. |
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TwinHamster
♫ Furious souls, burn eternally! ♫
Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Posts: 1352
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm not sure how much I agree with you. Game Designers should bow to every whim the player makes, of course, but who is the game being made for? |
Game is Art.
If you paint a picture, do you need it to appeal to everyone that's going to look at it?
For instance, I think that Munch's 'The Scream' could use more unicorns in the background; however, I'm sure Mr. Munch would not have added any unicorns to his painting if he were requested to do so because there were probably no unicorns in his vision of the artwork.
A game should primarily be what its artist wants it to be. |
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Joe Man
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 742
Location: S. Latitude 47°9', W. Longitude 123°43'
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Aye, it's as I've been saying for a good while, the developer has his own right to artistic license. Lordy, I feel so ignored.
Now, concerning "Game is Art", that's, as far as I'm concerned, almost always absolutely true. Art, by it's most basic all-inclusive definition, is a form of expression that communicates to an audience. In its own interesting way, this includes all games (though the message is never, and I promise you, never, the same sort of message that would be contained in a novel or painting, because, as I've mentioned before, the objective versus subjective content of them.
Rya, you don't seem to understand this, but because of this the game designing staff has the perfect right to make their game whatever they want. Yes, theoretically they could implement Rya-mode themselves, but that wouldn't make it fit their vision any more than any other self-censored artist's work. Yes, sometimes publishers make demands, and unfortunately for the designers, the game goes where the money takes it. Fortunately, not every gaming minority is so financially influential as to change every game to suit everyone, because that's not what art is about. You talk about your high ideals that all games should be enjoyed by everyone, but it's people's different opinions and preferences and views that make the world the beautiful, passionate place it is, and isn't that what art is really about?
I still think your games are worthless, though, because that's my entitled opinion.
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"Everyone has 200,000 bad drawings in them, the sooner you get them out the better."
~Charles Martin Jones
Last edited by Joe Man on Fri Dec 13, 1957 1:21 am; edited 2,892 time in total |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Beat Evil Fiend.
Save.
Leave Dungeon.
Surprise! A new boss appears!
Or an area that you can enter, but not leave until you fight the boss that comes out of nowhere when you try to leave (Final Fantasy Tactics was noted for this). |
Oh. I'm going to chalk that one up to crappy boss placement because that is a potential issue no matter what save system you use.
The kind of saving anywhere permanently I'm talking isn't "well, you can save on the world map anywhere you want between dungeons then OH NO A BOSS". I'm talking about games where you can save anywhere permanently, no matter the circumstance, which means easily loading your game in case something goes wrong, and saving your game every time you take a safe step, which would have really killed a sense of danger for some games.
| Quote: | I beat them (at least, the original ones) on my second try. I didn't get stuck, so much as it felt kind of like I could be screwed over by bad luck. Which is partially true in any RPG, I guess. Were I making that boss, I'd have had them cast a spell of "Revive" element on themselves if alone, and they'd spawn two more sisters if hit by a revive-type spell (This would use a whole element, though I could use it for other Monster things, but as an example). It's the same gimmick, but now it's possible for players to beat it by wiping out all of the Cleric Sister's MP
(Of course, my first time, that's how I thought the game itself did it, and was 10 minutes into the fight before I was disabused of this notion, so I might possibly be more annoyed at that boss than many others would be).
I suppose I'd say I found it difficult, but not challenging. |
Moogle1 recommends using Slow on the last Cleric to make getting the last kill easier. He also suggests using a life potion to revive your Wizard to get in another Death.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Actually according to the dictionary "Game is distinct from work and art", for some reason I can't really get a good translation for distinct, though, but doesn't that mean they exclude each other? That is "A game is never work or art"?
| Quote: | | Game Designer vs Gamer discussion |
Actually I think this depends a lot on the game. Usually games should be there for the gamer, they should be fun for the gamer. It doesn't really matter what the game designer himself thinks about the game, if everyone else loves his game then he is a good game designer.
Now there are still those game designers that do all their games for themselves. Either because "Meh, I can't find any game I like so I'll just do one I like myself" or because "I just wanna tell a message", but are those really games? If how I interpreted the definition of games correctly, then the games that are "not intended to be fun for the gamers" are not really games. They are art.
So yeah, games should always be made for the player not for the game designer, otherwise they are art.
| Quote: | | Saving anywhere can make you get stuck. |
I thought about this a lot lately, because it can really be a problem, but not any problem you can't solve. First of all, the games that enable you to save anywhere should focus on the "battle by battle" survival. This means that every battle could be deadly. Otherwise I'd be quite boring. To assure this system works, you basically need to implement a system that disables you from getting stuck because you run out of ressources. The most obvious solution here is to add something like "Fully recover HP&MP after each battle" and assure any battle is possible to beat with full HP&MP and a good tactic.
If you really really want to focus your gameplay on "Keeping enough ressources", there's another solution I thought of. You could use different save slots. Like if you save in town it's saved to Slot A, but if you save outside town it's saved to Slot B. This way you can assure a player can't get stuck, even if he's real stupid.
| Quote: | | Games that are fun for a short time are worse than games that are fun for a long time. |
I disagree on this. You can't measure how good a game is by the time it fascinates you. If a free game is AAA fun for 5 minutes it'll always be better than a free game that is A fun for 5 hours (quality = totalfun / wastedtime).
However, if the game is NOT free of charge, you could say that the game that is fun for 5 hours is "More worth the money" (worth = totalfun / moneypaid).
| Moogle1 wrote: | | Oh, so we are talking MMOs now? |
No about games in general. But if Onlyoneinall asks me where I got the MMO statistics from I can't reply with Pizza.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I thought about this a lot lately, because it can really be a problem, but not any problem you can't solve. First of all, the games that enable you to save anywhere should focus on the "battle by battle" survival. This means that every battle could be deadly. Otherwise I'd be quite boring. To assure this system works, you basically need to implement a system that disables you from getting stuck because you run out of ressources. The most obvious solution here is to add something like "Fully recover HP&MP after each battle" and assure any battle is possible to beat with full HP&MP and a good tactic.
If you really really want to focus your gameplay on "Keeping enough ressources", there's another solution I thought of. You could use different save slots. Like if you save in town it's saved to Slot A, but if you save outside town it's saved to Slot B. This way you can assure a player can't get stuck, even if he's real stupid. |
I am not going to argue against this advice, but only under the circumstance that games are allowed to use a different style of saving system if a different saving system works best.
Since Clamps' clarified that the issue wasn't getting stuck within a mess of random battles, but a boss that was blocking his exit, just simply don't put a boss there (why you would put a boss while the player is exiting a dungeon and not at the end is beyond me). And yes, even though Final Fantasy Tactics wasn't a game that had saving anywhere permanently (it had world map saving), I think I can vouch for instances where it pulled that sort of crap on you when you attempted to move elsewhere on the world map after you thought it was safe to save (though, I haven't played FFT in forever, so Moogle1 might pop in and put it to defense).
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, well I'm not even sure if I should put saving anywhere in my games always, I try to think up better solutions.
It's just that I think the "Ressource" system sucks so much. If the battles are only there to suck out your ressources you might as well completely remove battles and replace them by damaging tiles, or just remove the whole dungeon and just make a complex calculation when you enter a dungeon that calculates if you can survive with the ressources you've brought with you (including hp, mp, level and items) and then just says "Won" or "Lost". Not really a change in gameplay, just with much less time wasting. So yeah this system sucks, I guess there are still some who like it?
But any other system where "Everything could mean your death" is the basic gameplay, then I don't see why saving anywhere (or often) would hurt.
Regarding the gettin stuck, this can not only happen with a sudden boss. I mean you could go into a dungeon use up all MP and Items you have, then save there and then you might not be able to get out anymore at all, even if there's no boss or surprising enemy there. Of course it's the player's fault to do so, but the penalty to play the whole game from scratch is a bit harsh (assuming the game is longer than an hour).
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Joe Man
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 742
Location: S. Latitude 47°9', W. Longitude 123°43'
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Usually games should be there for the gamer, they should be fun for the gamer. It doesn't really matter what the game designer himself thinks about the game, if everyone else loves his game then he is a good game designer. |
Again, that is an impossible ideal. While there's no point in addressing how things "should" be, since there's no real right. I can't say that I think that popularilty is ncecessarily the almighty measure of quality, because nobody thinks that but program directors. | Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Now there are still those game designers that do all their games for themselves. Either because "Meh, I can't find any game I like so I'll just do one I like myself" or because "I just wanna tell a message", but are those really games? If how I interpreted the definition of games correctly, then the games that are "not intended to be fun for the gamers" are not really games. They are art. |
You're coming up with a really sloppy system here. The game is both a game and art, which is the catch of it. It's art in a sense because it's an expression by the designer, what she thinks is fun, what he wants players to experience. It's a game for an obvious reason: It's a game. To whip out the good old dictionary, | Merriam-Webster wrote: | | 1 a (1): activity engaged in for diversion or amusement |
| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | So yeah, games should always be made for the player not for the game designer, otherwise they are art. |
You say that like art is bad. Oh, right, you think it really is.
| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Quote: | | Games that are fun for a short time are worse than games that are fun for a long time. |
I disagree on this. You can't measure how good a game is by the time it fascinates you. If a free game is AAA fun for 5 minutes it'll always be better than a free game that is A fun for 5 hours (quality = totalfun / wastedtime).
However, if the game is NOT free of charge, you could say that the game that is fun for 5 hours is "More worth the money" (worth = totalfun / moneypaid). |
I do wish you would stop trying to come up with really stupid ways to justify your opinions, especially when I actually agree with you. Which I stopped doing once you started making up "quality" equations. | Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Moogle1 wrote: | | Oh, so we are talking MMOs now? |
No about games in general. But if Onlyoneinall asks me where I got the MMO statistics from I can't reply with Pizza. |
But you were the one who brought up an MMO in the first place.
I'm so sick of people carrying on a second conversation casually, so I'm going to open up another thread so people shut the hell up about permasave.
_________________
"Everyone has 200,000 bad drawings in them, the sooner you get them out the better."
~Charles Martin Jones
Last edited by Joe Man on Fri Dec 13, 1957 1:21 am; edited 2,892 time in total
Last edited by Joe Man on Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Man wrote: | | I'm so sick of people carrying on a second conversation casually, so I'm going to open up another thread so people shut the hell up about permasave. |
This whole thread started because Rya suggested TwinHamster put permasaves in Escape from Darkavern. You were late to the party.
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Calehay |
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Joe Man
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 742
Location: S. Latitude 47°9', W. Longitude 123°43'
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: |
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But this thread isn't about saving anywhere. This thread is about game difficulty. Yes, I know how it started, but the history of this thread is secondary to the current status of the thread.
I wouldn't complain if the thread's title or even the first post had anything to do with permasave anywhere. But they don't.
_________________
"Everyone has 200,000 bad drawings in them, the sooner you get them out the better."
~Charles Martin Jones
Last edited by Joe Man on Fri Dec 13, 1957 1:21 am; edited 2,892 time in total |
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Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Well, people are going to start arguing about video games being art, so this thread is already going straight to the garbage can.
| Quote: | | I wouldn't complain if the thread's title or even the first post had anything to do with permasave anywhere. But they don't. |
That's the secret. He doesn't want you to realize his opinions are half-baked and misinformed, so he changes the topic at every whim.
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Calehay |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You say that like art is bad. Oh, right, you think it really is. |
I don't think art is bad. I think that art is not enjoyable. Games should at least have the "intent of fun" (even if they don't succeed), but art isn't even intended to be fun, so it shouldn't be enjoyable to begin with.
_________________
Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Quote: | | You say that like art is bad. Oh, right, you think it really is. |
I don't think art is bad. I think that art is not enjoyable. Games should at least have the "intent of fun" (even if they don't succeed), but art isn't even intended to be fun, so it shouldn't be enjoyable to begin with. |
I'm sorry. Just for my amusement, I must know what you think "art" is.
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Calehay |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Art is everything that's not a game or work.
_________________
Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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