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Castle Paradox
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, Toejam & Earl is kind of a roguelike. No save feature, like you mentioned, but you usually will die in the first three hours. (That's probably close to the game's actual length anyway.)
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Roguelike or not, it should be changed. Seriously, why do you want the game to be frustrating? |
Because it's a game. There should be a challenge. Saving anywhere as many times as you want takes away that challenge. Your suggestion is an extreme response to a very minor problem. Making the traps less deadly and more avoidable solves the problem of your frustration without losing the factor of difficulty that is integral to the game.
And just because the game doesn't have the randomness factor doesn't mean that it "doesn't have Rogue-like elements at all." It just means that the game isn't a rogue-like. Which no one is really saying.
| Newbie_Power wrote: | | Shut up. Both of you. |
No. How is it that you tell me to shut up for questioning Rya's proclamation that this has no similarities to a rogue-like and then get involved in the conversation shortly afterward?
Though I agree with you, save anywhere, no matter what the difficulty, is a terrible, terrible idea. It takes away any difficulty whatsoever that this game has. You're free to make any mistake you want because you can save on any tile.
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TwinHamster
♫ Furious souls, burn eternally! ♫
Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Posts: 1352
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I'm thinking about placing a very limited amount of save-anywhere-items in the portable shop (Probably 3-5 in the entire game?).
This might help the desperate player, but will hopefully prevent a breaking of the game.
I'm also thinking about how to implement a magic system.
I've borrowed and started modifying the system I used in Fyre Emblem:
Basically, that system would generate a random number to determine the type of attack the hero would use (Physical, magic, summon).
If it picked magic, the hero's sprite would indicate a 'charging' stance and the game would give the player a couple ticks to hold down a combination of three keys to perform a magic attack.
However, the key combinations must have been hard to memorize or something, because no one seemed to like it very much.
I'll probably tweak it so that the player will have to type the key combination and that the keys pressed will actually appear on the screen this time.
(Or I could just make a standard spell menu, but that would be stale and boring) |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No. How is it that you tell me to shut up for questioning Rya's proclamation that this has no similarities to a rogue-like and then get involved in the conversation shortly afterward? |
It doesn't matter anymore, though I was wrong. Twinhamster has the right idea on the matter, so anything Rya says on the matter has to be taken to me or you in PM now.
| Quote: | I'm thinking about placing a very limited amount of save-anywhere-items in the portable shop (Probably 3-5 in the entire game?).
This might help the desperate player, but will hopefully prevent a breaking of the game. |
Do this. Smart players can use these in difficult rooms, while others can use it to take an emergency break.
| Quote: | I'm also thinking about how to implement a magic system.
I've borrowed and started modifying the system I used in Fyre Emblem:
Basically, that system would generate a random number to determine the type of attack the hero would use (Physical, magic, summon).
If it picked magic, the hero's sprite would indicate a 'charging' stance and the game would give the player a couple ticks to hold down a combination of three keys to perform a magic attack.
However, the key combinations must have been hard to memorize or something, because no one seemed to like it very much. |
For magic, do something that allows the use of just one button. Maybe, there could be more than one button to advance text boxes... Instead of pressing space bar to move on to the next text box, you could press Z or X to cast a magic or cure spell respectively.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Once again you didn't listen to me. I already said that all roguelikes I played didn't even allow saving at all, yet you ask me why I think roguelikes should allow saving anywhere? I'm not even thinking that.
What I think is that the concept of dead and challenge in a game is very outdated to begin with. Games should just be fun. But this is quite off-topic, you can read about it in this recent discussion, though:
http://forums.selectbutton.net/viewtopic.php?t=12334
Also LOL Rogue and Nethack are the worst roguelikes I've ever played. I only lasted like 3 minutes in both of them then got bored and quit forever.
EfD fascinated me way longer than those.
Also this discussion is very off-topic, though, it calls more for a general discussion thread like "Should modern games be a challenge?". I'm not even talking about EfD anymore, I just think that "Saving anywhere" is always a good in every game ever and ever game that misses this feature needs to be marked as having a bad point there. Calling it a terrible idea is just so wrong...
Edit: Btw, for some reason I have the feeling Moogle1 is the only one that is really reading my posts correctly.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
Last edited by Rya.Reisender on Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pharo212
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Um.. Rogue isn't a roguelike, it is Rogue. All roguelikes are based on it. |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Also LOL Rogue and Nethack are the worst roguelikes I've ever played. I only lasted like 3 minutes in both of them then got bored and quit forever. |
The roguelike genre May Not Be For You.
Regarding saving and so on: The "quicksave" is probably the best thing to happen to gaming and more games need it. It's a mainstay in the roguelike genre: you can save anywhere, but saving quits the game and your save disappears when you load. More recently, it's started to catch on with portable games. Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow had the feature. Picross DS has a similar feature. Every game that can last longer than half an hour per session should let you save anytime. (This is a more sweeping generalization than I actually mean to make, so spare me your "what abouts.") It was excusable back when there were hardware limitations, but there aren't anymore.
I'm not sure why people are suggesting that being able to save anywhere would ruin the game, but then again I haven't played it. I'm actually going to agree with Rya on principle here, though.
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Regarding saving and so on: The "quicksave" is probably the best thing to happen to gaming and more games need it. It's a mainstay in the roguelike genre: you can save anywhere, but saving quits the game and your save disappears when you load. More recently, it's started to catch on with portable games. Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow had the feature. Picross DS has a similar feature. Every game that can last longer than half an hour per session should let you save anytime. (This is a more sweeping generalization than I actually mean to make, so spare me your "what abouts.") It was excusable back when there were hardware limitations, but there aren't anym |
I am against being able to permanently save anywhere, while quick saving is like pausing the game, but saving electricity while doing so.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Newbie_Power wrote: | | I am against being able to permanently save anywhere, while quick saving is nowhere near as abusable. |
Same here.
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong... I don't think anyone was suggesting permasaves.
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Well... Let's just clear this up:
- I am against perma-saving anywhere at the player's freedom for this kind of game.
- I am for quick saving, since it wouldn't really affect the game.
- I am for location based perma-saves, since it would allow for bursts of challenge.
- I am for rare items that allow a consumable permasave (I recently told Drizzle of the idea that save anywhere could bring the player back to the door they came in to enter the room, so maybe Twin Hamster can incorporate this into his save items).
For other games, that allow saving in enemy territory (Zelda and MGS come to mind), the save game forcing you to either go back to the beginning of the dungeon or the beginning of the room is a lot better way to handle perma-saving anywhere than OHR's default behavior of bringing you back to an exact spot.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Jack
the fool
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 773
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Moogle1 wrote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong... I don't think anyone was suggesting permasaves. |
I was under the impression that everyone was talking about permasaves. At least for Darkavern that is.
| Quote: |
I'm not sure why people are suggesting that being able to save anywhere would ruin the game, but then again I haven't played it. I'm actually going to agree with Rya on principle here, though. |
Because it'd be like playing Minesweeper with the ability to save, rather than to just be more careful next time. I can understand his complaint with this version of the game since there's absolutely no warning to dodge traps. However, since Twins fixing this in the next version, adding a save anywhere feature would be lame.
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Because it'd be like playing Minesweeper with the ability to save, rather than to just be more careful next time. I can understand his complaint with this version of the game since there's absolutely no warning to dodge traps. However, since Twins fixing this in the next version, adding a save anywhere feature would be lame. |
The minesweeper example is a good one. In terms of gameplay, permasaving (is that a word?) anywhere would just take the fun out of it. Much like Jack, I was under the impression that Rya was talking about permasaving.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Moogle1 wrote: | | The classic roguelike genre May Not Be For You. |
Fixed.
Out of the roguelikes I played many of them were enjoyable. Just not the ones I played on PC (except castle of the winds where you can save anywhere permanently as well, if I can recall correctly).
I was talking about PERMANENTLY saving anywhere, anytime (maybe except in some situations where you could get stuck forever). This is always a good feature in ANY game, because it always makes it more convenient for the player to play a game. You aren't even forced to save, if you are some hardcore player you could still try to complete the game without saving like some people try to complete Final Fantasy VII without any equipments. But at least the player should be given the possibility to do so if he wants to. It can never be anything negative, since it doesn't force the player to anything and just gives him more freedom to play as he likes it.
Quicksaving however is only useful in games that are really long and where you don't die often. In a game where you basically die EVERY 3 SECONDS this feature is so completely useless. So in this game quicksave is completely useless. Some actual roguelikes I know (like Dragon Crystal) would benefit from this feature and some games like Unlimited Sa-Ga already make use of it perfectly.
| Quote: | | - I am for rare items that allow a consumable permasave |
That's like the worst idea in game designing ever, for any game.
Minesweeper is a really good example. It shows why permasaving is so cool. Imagine, after taking a correct tile you could save and then if you take a wrong tile you can return to where have you been and retry. This would actually make the game enjoyable and there would be a point in trying to complete it eventually. Quicksaving in Minesweeper however would be useless because no game takes longer than 5 minutes.
I'm in total disagreement to Newbie Powers idea that games should be frustrating for the player to create a challenge. That's really a thing from the past, like 1980s.
Also please stop pming me, it's pointless to discuss with you alone. Either make a thread about it or ignore me. It's okay if you have a different opinion but being like "Nooo, don't listen to Rya" goes a bit too far.
| Moogle1 wrote: | | Oh yeah, Toejam & Earl is kind of a roguelike. No save feature, like you mentioned, but you usually will die in the first three hours. (That's probably close to the game's actual length anyway.) |
Yeah actually three hours was maybe a bit too high, let's say one hour. Still way better than dieing after three seconds (which happened to me both in Nethack and EfD).
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Minesweeper is a really good example. It shows why permasaving is so cool. Imagine, after taking a correct tile you could save and then if you take a wrong tile you can return to where have you been and retry. This would actually make the game enjoyable and there would be a point in trying to complete it eventually. Quicksaving in Minesweeper however would be useless because no game takes longer than 5 minutes. |
I can't reach you. You're too far gone. You basically want to never die. There's a major difference between challenge and frustration... for most people. Apparently there isn't one for you.
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The shake-zula, the mic rulah, the old schoola, you wanna trip? I'll bring it to yah... |
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