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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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You are hurting my BRAIN
| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | I said there are either those that are only focused on their gameplay or parody games there. Also I was referring to games which I have actually played as well. |
Heaven forbid a GAME focus on GAMEPLAY
| Quote: | Of the current Top 30, the only games I'd consider overall good (graphics, music, gameplay, story together) are:
Wandering Hamster, Boundless Ocean, Missing (not played yet, but it's by Orchard so it can only be good), Wingedmene, Spellshard and Lolsidothaldremobine. |
Of the rest of the games, how many have you even played? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the six games you've listed constitute at least half of the listed games you've actually completed...
| Quote: | | The others all lack quality in at least one of those aspects. |
...making this insult very much a blanket statement.
| Quote: | | I don't think you should value anything in a game like "gameplay" over any other aspect of the game. It's all about how they work together. And in the end the ONLY important thing is that playing the game is enjoyable. |
What. If you're going to contradict yourself, put the contradicting statements in separate paragraphs.
| Quote: | | Vikings of Midgard is traditional, but games like Boundless Ocean still surpass those by far. |
Boundless Ocean is a traditional RPG.
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Newbie_Power wrote: | | With OHR games, not every body has the luxury of good graphics, which is why I consider gameplay more important for us because not everybody is named Fenrir-Lunaris, Friend, or Fyrewulf. |
ITYM Charbile, not Fyrewulff.
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, sorry. Charbile.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Rya claimed early in the thread that the grade I gave to EotE didn't reflect my opinion and was only there to lower the game's score. This is false. I gave it an F+ because it was terrible in just about every way. I did originally decide to play it and write the review because all the other reviews were so glowing, but the review did in fact reflect my opinion. If all I wanted to do was lower the score I obviously would've given it an F-.
Also, I agree that ideally a game should be good in all aspects and not just gameplay (or just anything else). However, if a game is good enough in one aspect it can still be worthwhile even if it's flawed in other ways.
| Quote: | | What. If you're going to contradict yourself, put the contradicting statements in separate paragraphs. |
He didn't contradict himself. There are more things that make a game fun to play than gameplay. If you take two games with equally good gameplay and give one of them better graphics and music and story, that one will be more fun to play.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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@Surlaw
What graphics / games I like is based on my own personal preference. I look at them and know if they are good or not. I wouldn't say this is based on "nothing".
Also if the games have a fixed camera they are not really 3D. Maybe 2D with 3D sprites. I might enjoy some of those actually. It different from game to game anyways (same for full 2D games).
@JSH357
I think you rate games quite different than me. The games you listed are indeed awesome, but unlike you, I wouldn't say they lack something in any area. Ace Attorney has awesome gameplay already just because of the game idea. Shadow of the Colossus has an awesome story. It's short, but perfectly fits the game, any other story would make the game worse, so it's perfect in this aspect too.
As I said before, the only thing that really matters is if you enjoy a game. And if I can't enjoy a game because the graphics aren't appealing is the same thing as if I can't enjoy a game because the gameplay just plain sucks.
| Quote: | | if you think a community of amateur game developers is going to produce a lot of games with super-awesome pixel art, original scores, masterfully paced storytelling, intriguing dialogue and perfectly-crafted gameplay elements, have fun finding nothing |
In fact I already found many games that I enjoyed. Even if it's only a small percentage of the OHR games, there are many masterpieces than are by far better than any professional ones.
And Cave Story is another of those masterpieces. I don't see any flaws in that game.
| Quote: | | [...]joke games[...] |
Some joke games can actually be good. Games like ARFENHOUSE 3 are just perfect how they are. Even the graphics are perfect for that game. Misteroo is actually an awesome artist I saw some of his real drawings back then and also in the "Earth" aspects of the game he actually shows how nice OHR graphics he can make if he wants to make them good.
Other games however often really feel like "I can't do any high-quality game so I just make a joke game" and I can only enjoy very few of them.
I really don't want to make all the game developers bad here. I mean it's really good if they train their game design, if they are creative, if they put a lot effort into something and if they actually create something with the OHR. It's good that those people exist and they are really cool and admirable.
However if you have the viewpoint of a player you just want to play a game that you enjoy. You can't just think "Well they are only amateurs and they put a lot of effort into it" and then enjoy the game anyways. For me Sword of Jade is the best example for it. I know they put a lot of effort into this game, probably more effort than anyone else ever put into an OHR game. However when I play it I just don't enjoy it. That's why I can't consider it a good game, although I'm sure that they put a lot effort into it. |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Moogle1 wrote: | | Heaven forbid a GAME focus on GAMEPLAY |
I meant that only focus on gameplay. Basically games I'd be doing myself if I would do them alone, awful graphics, ripped sounds, poor or 'non-sense' dialogues, but an awesome gameplay. That just isn't enough for me to enjoy a game.
| Quote: | | Of the rest of the games, how many have you even played? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the six games you've listed constitute at least half of the listed games you've actually completed... |
I either played them and didn't like the gameplay or I just checked the screenshots and didn't find them appealing enough to download them in the first place. Either way the games lacked something for me. I admit that there are around 5 games there that I still wanna give a chance, though.
| Quote: | | What. If you're going to contradict yourself, put the contradicting statements in separate paragraphs. |
What Iblis said. I didn't contradict myself. A good combination of graphics, music, gameplay and story makes playing a game fun.
| Quote: | | Boundless Ocean is a traditional RPG. |
This is just a question of definition.
| Iblis wrote: | | Rya claimed early in the thread that the grade I gave to EotE didn't reflect my opinion and was only there to lower the game's score. This is false. I gave it an F+ because it was terrible in just about every way. I did originally decide to play it and write the review because all the other reviews were so glowing, but the review did in fact reflect my opinion. If all I wanted to do was lower the score I obviously would've given it an F-. |
Okay I understand what you are saying. However I still doubt that you like those really awful "smiley" (not referring to a specific game) games that feel like "clicked together in one day" and are graded with D-E more than Ends of the Earth. I mean Ends of the Earth really isn't as special as people used to say, but it was still playable, the battles aren't too hard or too easy, the graphics are quite good compared to many other OHR graphics even these days. Do you really disagree to that? Do you really put those other really awful games above this one? |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Quote: | | Of the rest of the games, how many have you even played? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the six games you've listed constitute at least half of the listed games you've actually completed... |
I either played them and didn't like the gameplay or I just checked the screenshots and didn't find them appealing enough to download them in the first place. Either way the games lacked something for me. I admit that there are around 5 games there that I still wanna give a chance, though. |
Let me confirm. You tried out all of the games on the top 30? You gave them a chance -- say, five minutes -- before moving on? Those games are on there for a reason.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Boundless Ocean is a traditional RPG. |
This is just a question of definition. |
That's true, in the sense that you seem to have your own definition for a lot of things. I'm curious how you define "traditional RPG" and what disqualified Boundless Ocean.
| Quote: | | He didn't contradict himself. There are more things that make a game fun to play than gameplay. If you take two games with equally good gameplay and give one of them better graphics and music and story, that one will be more fun to play. |
Yes, he did. He said that no aspect of a game is more important than another, then he said that enjoyment is the most important aspect of a game.
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Uncommon
His legend will never die
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2503
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Good gameplay isn't everything, though. |
It is, however, mostly everything. the other part is presentation. A game's graphics don't have to be absolutely amazing, they just have to fit the game's style. A lot of my friends hate killer7 because of the graphics, but I love the game for its general aesthetic.
And yeah, I remember you from Zant's old board. I was even more a kid than you were back then. But honestly, you probably shouldn't cling to Grief so tightly. It's gameplay was atrocious with the whole levelgrinding for five mindless hours in each dungeon to progress, and the pre-rendered backgrounds really didn't translate well, especially those horrible, awful goddamn walkabouts (by the way, i was the guy who made the walkabouts for Grief, i'm sorry everybody). It had a kind've interesting story, but I've said of a lot of games that I can't tolerate being bored for the sake of an interesting story.
But anyway, welcome back and I hope the way things are now don't scare you off. You'll just have to turn and face these strange ch-ch-ch-changes.
Last edited by Uncommon on Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you really put those other really awful games above this one? |
My grade for EotE isn't comparative. I didn't give it "an F+ relative to other OHR games." I just gave it an F+. It's possible that there are games I've reviewed that I gave higher grades to that I would now rank lower than EotE (and there are definitely games other people have graded higher that I would say are worse than EotE), because my methods of judgement have changed a lot over the years, and simply because letter grades like that are extremely imprecise. But the grade is what I believed it deserved, looked at on its own, at the time I wrote the review.
| Quote: | | What graphics / games I like is based on my own personal preference. I look at them and know if they are good or not. I wouldn't say this is based on "nothing". |
Preference is separate from quality. What you like is what you like and any claims that someone should like this or shouldn't like that are complete nonsense. However, "I like this" is a statement about you, and "this is good" is a statement about the game. That's a big leap to make.
| Quote: | | Yes, he did. He said that no aspect of a game is more important than another, then he said that enjoyment is the most important aspect of a game. |
Ah! Yes, that is a contradiction, but the contradiction is only in imprecise wording. "Neither graphics nor gameplay nor music nor story are most important, rather enjoyment is most important" is not a contradiction, and I suspect this is what he meant (not saying I would make the same statement though, I agree with the beginning but not the end).
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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@Surlaw
You seem to categorize all your sentences in "wrong" and "true" quite interesting, but in a discussion you should consider that different people have different definitions and opinions about things. Just because I like something doesn't mean I expect other to like it and the same should go the other way around. For me 3D and tradional rpgs are a matter of definition.
| Surlaw wrote: | | No, you can. Most people seem to hold independent games/movies/etc to a different standard than professional projects. |
Well, not me. I won't play a game I don't enjoy, no matter if Squareenix or a 12 year old kid did it.
| Moogle1 wrote: | | Let me confirm. You tried out all of the games on the top 30? You gave them a chance -- say, five minutes -- before moving on? Those games are on there for a reason. |
I think you misread my sentence there. I clearly said that I didn't download some because of the screenshots already (this also includes the dialogue seen in the screenshots and the HP values for example). I just recently game back so I didn't try out many of the new ones yet. But if the graphics still look average and there's no dialogue or anything that indicates a bad game and they are on the Top 30 I'll give them a try in the future.
| Quote: | | That's true, in the sense that you seem to have your own definition for a lot of things. I'm curious how you define "traditional RPG" and what disqualified Boundless Ocean. |
Yes my definition might seem to differ from yours completely.
What disqualifies Boundless Ocean for me:
1. Only one hero
2. Forging system (including the way it's working with negative effects)
3. Other 'special' ideas that aren't in traditional RPGs
4. The story (no "save the world" aspect)
| Quote: | | Yes, he did. He said that no aspect of a game is more important than another, then he said that enjoyment is the most important aspect of a game. |
Enjoyment = Combination of all aspects
I hope you understand me now.
| Quote: | | It is, however, mostly everything. the other part is presentation. A game's graphics don't have to be absolutely amazing, they just have to fit the game's style. A lot of my friends hate killer7 because of the graphics, but I love the game for its general aesthetic. |
I can't really argue there because I hate the gameplay of Killer7. The graphics and the movement idea were interesting. But that's just an issue of us two having a completely opposite taste in games I guess.
| Quote: | | And yeah, I remember you from Zant's old board. I was even more a kid than you were back then. But honestly, you probably shouldn't cling to Grief so tightly. It's gameplay was atrocious with the whole levelgrinding for five mindless hours in each dungeon to progress, and the pre-rendered backgrounds really didn't translate well, especially those horrible, awful goddamn walkabouts (by the way, i was the guy who made the walkabouts for Grief). It had a kind've interesting story, but I've said of a lot of games that I can't tolerate being bored for the sake of an interesting story. |
Again we have a completely different taste. I personally enjoyed playing Grief a lot. The good music and graphics made grinding so enjoyable that I really had no problem grinding 5 hours straight and then I was even sad when I finished it already. The grinding wasn't unfair easier, battles were challanging and you could move to the next map after some minutes to get a new challange. Well I liked it, many others didn't. I also liked SaGaFrontier while so many hate it.
| Quote: | | But anyway, welcome back and I hope the way things are now don't scare you off. You'll just have to turn and face these strange ch-ch-ch-changes. |
It's hard to get used to this excessive discussion here. I can't even reply fast enough. Like in this thread there have been made more posts than the last some months on this forum lol.
If the changes mean that the super talented people all left and now there are the default RPG maker users here with the only exception that they do their graphics on their own, then that's kinda sad. Because I originally liked the OHRRPGCE community because some members were just real geniuses.
But it doesn't matter too much, I'll keep playing the games that I enjoy and if I don't enjoy any OHR games I won't play any OHR games anymore, that won't really let me leave a community, though. I can still help others as I offered on the first page.
Also going to sleep now, good night!
Addition:
@Iblis
But there can't be an objective opinion about graphics or gameplay. So "I like it" and "it is good" can only be the same thing unless some kind of computer says it. Or even better, nobody is allowed to say "it is good" to begin with because nobody can judge it. Unless you define "it is good" as average opinion of all humans together. |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Yes my definition might seem to differ from yours completely.
What disqualifies Boundless Ocean for me:
1. Only one hero
2. Forging system (including the way it's working with negative effects)
3. Other 'special' ideas that aren't in traditional RPGs
4. The story (no "save the world" aspect) |
Traditional RPGs are known because they have turn based battle systems. I've seen JRPGs from the Playstation and Playstation 2 era try and mix things up to be less traditional, while still being considered traditional JRPGs.
Or, I could go on a completely different spectrum and say that Boundless Ocean stopped being classified as a traditional RPG the moment it is played on a computer and not with paper and pen and throwing dice while acting out characters.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Joe Man
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 742
Location: S. Latitude 47°9', W. Longitude 123°43'
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Uncommon wrote: | | Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Good gameplay isn't everything, though. |
It is, however, mostly everything. the other part is presentation. A game's graphics don't have to be absolutely amazing, they just have to fit the game's style. A lot of my friends hate killer7 because of the graphics, but I love the game for its general aesthetic. |
I like Killer7 for that, but I hate it overall because it sucks as a game. As much as I played to look at the pretty stuff that people raved about (and watch the story that thoroughly unimpressed me), I still despise the game and will always hate it for being dismal.
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Last edited by Joe Man on Fri Dec 13, 1957 1:21 am; edited 2,892 time in total |
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