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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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 Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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ya, you're right. I was just meaning though that it is a mere iconography of God/Messiah kinda thing with a god that acts in the world through a certain form of messiah (spoken or not) which is assumably the hero. This doesn't apply to all cases at all though. For once, there isn't a god in Chrono Trigger, and the closest thing to a god would be the nterpretation of alfador as the counsciousness behind the reverie but in that case, it didn't choose a messiah per se.
In fact, it pops into mind that the most classical rpgs rarely have gods... well the ones that pop into mind at least. FFVI for example uses quite an alternate vision of things though it seems rather obvious that the espers are what we commonly refer to as god (some even have gods' names) but in this game, the espers are not responsible for the way things turn out.
Could you point out a couple of games where the god's cliche applies please? |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Could you point out a couple of games where the god's cliche applies please? |
You know what...?
The Legend of Zelda games from Ocarina of Time on up are the major players. Link is the hero, the messiah, and the one all, end all way of saving the world. It is the sole reason the cliche still exists.
Final Fantasy 1 has a prophecy, but does not explicitly mention any god(s).
Final Fantasy 3 has a god that sends the heroes out to save the world.
... Vikings of Migard.
That's four games I can think of. Two of them are older games, and Vikings of Migard is based on Norse mythology. Even in Zelda, the goddesses created Hyrule and left the sacred realm in the hands of the Seven Sages, the Triforce, and the re-occurring Links that continue to populate the continuity.
So in reality, there is a good reason why I refuse to accept the argument that gods in RPGs mirror the Christian God, because the worlds that imagination of man develops is too different from the real world to make it a serious statement. Most of the time, heroes in RPGs are sent to the world to free it from the grasp of monsters, demons, and other creatures that normal humans can't handle. Jesus saved the world in a very different way by allowing us to come to him and go on a path that frees us from inner demons, not outer demons bent on physically destroying Earth. |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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...though the religion is usually good at representing abstract concepts into more concrete ones...
But i get your point, in fact, I believe it was Komera who brought forwards this cliche, and I just felt weird about it because, personally, as I realize, I don't remember being annoyed by it since most references are, as you said, quite polished up so that the reference is not quite so straightforward. I do remember, however, some real-time game which I forgot the name of where you were stricly playing the role of a messiah, in fact 2, but I wouldn't exactly call them all-time classics...
So yeah, I'd like to hear whoever brought this point up show us with evidence that its a cliche?
And besides... it seems like its only you and I truly discussing this  |
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Uncommon
His legend will never die
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2503
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Games in which you fight God:
Final Fantasy Tactics
Xenogears
a number of other ones that i haven't played or bothered looking into |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Fighting god? thats the opposite from the cliche is it not? |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Uncommon wrote: | Games in which you fight God:
Final Fantasy Tactics
Xenogears
a number of other ones that i haven't played or bothered looking into |
You don't fight God in Final Fantasy Tactics. The church lied about St. Ajora - it is implicit that there is a God, but the church has long departed from the truth.
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Uncommon
His legend will never die
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2503
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Moogle1 wrote: | | Uncommon wrote: | Games in which you fight God:
Final Fantasy Tactics
Xenogears
a number of other ones that i haven't played or bothered looking into |
You don't fight God in Final Fantasy Tactics. The church lied about St. Ajora - it is implicit that there is a God, but the church has long departed from the truth. |
Actually, I don't remember any implications of an actual God other than St. Ajora, I only remember them lying about St. Ajora's nature.
And J.A.R.S., the cliché is in most cases about fighting God.
Last edited by Uncommon on Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| the one stated previously is about god not doing a damn i believe... if you fight god, then clearly, he's doing a damn is he not? |
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Uncommon
His legend will never die
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2503
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah, I hadn't noticed that the conversation had switched gears. |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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*HUGE SPOILERS FOR XENOGEARS! COPY INTO NOTEPAD TO SEE*
That game doesn't have a true god either. Deus never created the universe (it crashed landed on the planet the game takes place on, in fact), and seeks to have ultimate power instead of saving its people. Deus is a terrible example of a god, because the game is designed to play it as one until it is revealed what its true purpose is, thus disqualifying it as the cliche in question.
Because Xenogears fed off the popularity of Neon Genesis Evangelion (and it shows), the actual names of most of the entities and artifacts in the game need to be taken with a grain of salt.
| Quote: | | And J.A.R.S., the cliché is in most cases about fighting God. |
Now I see this. That is definitely a larger cliche in many modern games, including Xenogears. |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| just like Lavos to a certain extent except perhaps that Lavos doesn't talk and breeds upon the livings depends what a god in your eye really... A diety is an overwhelming being, whether it be bad or good, creator or destructor (in fact, the first god history recorded the account of was the Sumerian Marduk, which I am not faulty, and he was more or less a god of death, perhaps more destructive than even satan lol) |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Uhh...
I think you just mentioned Lavos just to mention him. |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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not really.
"That game doesn't have a true god either. Deus never created the universe (it crashed landed on the planet the game takes place on, in fact)"
Reminds me of lavos a GREAT DEAL... |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Deus is actually relevant. |
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Ysoft_Entertainment
VB Programmer
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Wherever There is a good game.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Games that you fight gods, that I played
Alundra(PSX)
Lunar: Eternal Blue(PSX)
I think in Valkyrie Profile you fight gods(I haven't reached that point of the game yet.
In gameboy's version of final fantasy, you fight the Creator.
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OHRGFX
Striving to become better pixel artist then Fenrir Lunaris. Unfortunately the laziness gets in the way of my goals. |
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