Castle Paradox

[Aethereal]

I have decided to leave #ohrrpgce. Permanently? Probably not. For how long? I don't know, but a while. Why? I'll tell you.

In my opinion, #ohrrpgce is no longer an ohr community channel (although it never really was) or a game design channel (this it was) - it has become a corrupted channel dominated by the heroists where you are given zero respect if you do not strive for ultimate perfection and/or do not make/have not made games. I have finalized this observation through a very recent conversation involving Harlock, myself, Jsang (minorly), Fortis, Shizuma (minorly), Cube, and maybe one or two others. It began with us discussing Shizuma's new ohr board. I simply said it would be interesting to have three ohr boards (this, Shiz's, and Renzokuken). This brought up Harlock to say something along the lines of 'no, we will only have one ohr board - Renzo isn't even worth discussing and Castle Paradox has no values because no person is valued more than another and everyone is equal'. Harlock also basically said that he only cares about people if they can make games.

Now, my question is, what the hell? A community where everyone is valued equally and people cannot/should not put down people for no reason (i.e. flaming) has no values? I'd say that a community like that constitutes greater values than the opposite - there are no tyrants who attack people for fun and idiots who think they are better than everyone else and thus everyone must listen to them or be destroyed.

Additionally, there was discussion about how 'Castle Paradox was all about community and thus there is no productivity'. What is interesting is that, generally, community and productivity are complementary (usually the reason why this may not be the case is because the community is made up of a bunch of dunderheads who have no clue what they are doing). If you have community, they will make posts based on the subject of the community, and people will make other posts in reply to the original that have their own opinions/critiques, and the reader learns from this and ultimately becomes more productive with the ideas.

(Note that the above was to show how the Heroists think the community should be run by using Castle Paradox as an example of the opposite.)

I do not have anything against the Heroists as people (in fact, Rinku seems to be a very intelligent person, unique game designer, and I enjoy reading his LJ posts), but I do have something against them trying to turn the ohr community into a Heroist community. If that is the case, I don't want to be a part of a community where I am disrespected because I am not perfect.

So, if you don't see me in #ohrrpgce, this is why. If you want to talk to me on irc, get in #paradoxlounge or PM me. I'll probably return eventually unless I'm banned (heh).
_________________

[Squall]

I'm also annoyed by the increase of people who think that they're much better than the other people becasue they've made a couple of games and the other people are just starting.

I'm sick of trying to reach their high standards. It sickens me to see the kind of hold the so-called "vets" have on people.

Rinku is the only person that I would call a vet, although I hate that term. He knows his stuff when it comes to game design, and it shows through his articles and games.

So. I look forward to the future of the OHR community with IM, CN, and Aeth in the cockpit. See you on #paradoxlounge
_________________
You got film in my video game!
You got video game in my film!

[HarlockHero]

first of all, shizuma is the one who said there would only be one ohr forum, and i seconded that assertion as fact. secondly, shizuma and i are the only heroist ops in #ohrrpgce, shizuma rarely uses his and i'm hardly ever on.

but the real point is this. i didn't say that i only have respect for people who make games, i said that if you are PART OF A GAME DESIGN COMMUNITY, you only deserve respect in that community IF YOU MAKE GAMES, and the degree of that respect should be determined SOLELY by HOW GOOD THOSE GAMES ARE. the same would apply to your writing if you were part of a writer's community, or to your art if you were part of an artistic community. its not a difficult concept. they don't allow any and every athlete into the olympics, you only get that respect if you are among the best, and its because of this that olympian athletes are valued the world over as the best at what they do. productivity doesn't come from a sense of community, it comes from having values and working to be your best because those values drive you. valuing everything equally and upholding community over actual skill is anti-productive, if you don't believe just look at what this community accomplishes vs what shizuma's ohr forums will accomplish in as much time.

i don't care if you don't want to better yourself, you can stay here on the commune and be as socialist as you like. its not my responsibility to look out for your well-being or anyone else's but my own. the reason for broadcasting my ideas to specific others is that i personally value them enough to try and assist them in their perfection (people like pk, shizuma, rinku, etc). i'm sure you'll probably say that its an arrogant presumption to know what people need to do to perfect themselves, and you're right, i am arrogant, and i deserve to be that way. a is a, and your pandering to some metaorganism isn't going to change reality, it'll just drive you insane in the long run.
_________________

[Rinku]

I think what harlock and shiz meant was not that it would be the only ohr messageboard, but that it would be the only one that's oriented toward game creation.

But I do object that Aeth is creating hyperbolies without backing, with "you are given zero respect if you do not strive for ultimate perfection and/or do not make/have not made games", "tyrants who attack people for fun and idiots who think they are better than everyone else and thus everyone must listen to them or be destroyed.", "trying to turn the ohr community into a Heroist community", "disrespected because I am not perfect.", etc., are exaggerations. I don't act like that. I certainly don't expect anyone to keep up to my standards of game design, except perhaps charbile. I don't aim to make people feel bad for not being good at game design, I still respect people who are beginners at game design (gizmog, hachi-roku, etc.) and people who are in the ohrrpgce community but don't intend on making games (kiri, jsang, etc.), it's false to say I don't. I don't try to destroy people who don't listen to me, I don't intend on making the ohrrpgce community into a heroist community, I don't disrespect people because they are not perfect. If you claim that I do, give evidence for it, not just accusatiosn without backing. Actual quotes where I do these things would be nice.

[Blazes Battles Inc.]

Ok... listen. In a community, everyone should be held with the same respect as anyone else. Just because someone doesn't make games doesn't mean they should bow down to you and it doesn't mean they should get less priveleges. Otherwise it isn't a community, it's like a feudal system. Anyone who makes good games and plays down on people who don't make as good ones, remember that you started out making bad games too. You may not have released them, but unless you are the ultimate game designer, you had test games that were crappy. If you think that you can judge other people by their first works, release your real first works so we can judge you by them. On the topic of people being held in higher regard than one another, you should check the game description for the Zelda game here... it tells a nice little story. The ONLY person I think should be held in higher regard than anyone else in an OHR community is of course James himself, because he's the one that made the system, and he's the only reason most of us even know each other. The only 'veteran' I really do respect would have to be Rinku, because although he is incredibly good at game design he doesn't try to go around and rub it in your face. Some of you are probably thinking that's not true, but if you really think about what he would say about games was the absolute, plain truth of what he thought of it, which while may not be as nice as something you'd hear coming from me, it should have helped you figure out exactly what was wrong with your game, and he only insulted games, not people. As for most of the other people (not all) that started the Septaweekly Forum, what you do daily is a total abuse of power.
_________________
Preserve OHR history! Do it for the children!

[Aethereal]

Rinku - No, you don't act like that (misclarification on my part, sorry), but at the same time I do believe you are generally trying to turn the community into something run solely by the Heroists' philosophies on game design (case: the method of moderating the Game Design boards on Zant).

Har, what it sounds like you are saying is that if a person makes a game and it is good, then you'll respect them. What about the people who are serious game designers (such as Haggard) but haven't made any games? Also, the way you argue is very cowardly. You will continue to argue a point until eventually you basically say, "Your points are wrong. Mine are right! I'm now ignoring you". I know I am not the only one who you have done something like that to, and it very imperfect, which is interesting since you are striving for "ultimate perfection".
_________________

[Fenrir-Lunaris]

I had made a comment about this. But then as I went to post, the boards spited me once again with errors, and I lost all my progress. I can't even begin to work myself back up to the task of rewriting it, so here's the gist of it....

1: Being technically new to the community (though I have 4+ years of experience with OHR programming), I would likely not have recieved any notability or produced ANY games worth playing had I gone through the Heroist's path of game development.

2: I could see some logic behind the Heroist's methods of turning away newer members, if only because so many came to them with an attitude like "h1! I m new t oOHr! hoW do i mak a gam? Lol!!!1!!1! by!!1!", and they probably deserved to be rejected as such.

3: Putting people down because their games aren't up to impossibly high standards and flame wars has done more damage to this community than Zantetsuken breaking apart, or anything the Heroists have done.

4: A one board community would never work as well as several boards, each specializing in different aspects of game design, which seems to be the trend now. That and it serves to keep the wolves from the sheep (heh heh) by seperating them.

5: James owns our souls. Enough said.

[HarlockHero]

the argument here is basically this. do you want to form a group for the same of an activity, or an activity for the sake of a group? a game design community that centers on game design is the former, a game design community that centers on community is the latter. i've never tried to ostracize anyone; i don't actively seek to put people down as aethereal is trying to claim. the only thing i try and break down are opinions that i hold to be anti-life and anti-productivity and i only do it out of a desire to see goodness in other people, not to belittle the holder of those opinions or beliefs.

i never said i look down on someone in a game design community who doesn't make games, i just simply ignore them, and focus my attention on the productive members, because that's why i'm in the community: to make games. when you're in school, you don't talk to everone in your class do you? some are there to play football, but if that doesn't interest you, you might talk to only those people who are there to be math majors. its that simple, it doesn't mean you disrespect and belittle the football players. people like haggard are constantly talking about game design and refining their philosophy of it, which is an activity that should take place in a game design community, and thus he's respectable. stuff like threads about heavy things and killing xylophone horses has nothing to do with game design, and thus if a person's contribution to a game design community is entirely focused on irreverence and nonsense, i won't respect him AS A GAME DESIGNER. outside of the context of the community, he may be a plenty nice guy, and i might even call him my friend.

an example: chaosnyte. as long as he and i don't talk about anything remotely related to what life ought to be like, or philosophy in general, we get along rather well. i don't respect cn in the context of a game design community, but i respect that he's a fairly active person and manages to get a lot of writing done. i don't look down on him, i just highly HIGHLY disagree with almost every opinion that he has. doesn't mean i hate him or think that he's a bad person. sometimes i probably come across as more aggressive than i intend to be, but oh well, i'm not too concerned with how other people interpret me.

as for ending arguments by ignoring someone, that's not childish, its merely a sign that i've made a conscious decision that the argument with that specific person is not worth persuing. i can give the example of arguing for heroism against you, aethereal. if i talked to you for maybe 50 years, i could probably convince you that you should try and focus some interest on yourself and strive to perfection (didn't say reach, i said strive for), but what good would that do? no offense to you, i'm not trying to just be mean or hurt your feelings or anything, but it just doesn't seem worth it to me. i'd much rather talk to several other people i know, because they're a lot closer to the heroic ideal presently than i think you would be at the end of that 50 year period. i don't fault you for that. i don't hate you as a person or think you're a waste, i just happen to think that your view of reality is delusional and that its not worth my time to persuade you otherwise. again, its no offense against you, just think of it as business, because destroying anti-life opinions is like my job or career. okay? okay!
_________________

[Rolling Stone]

I actually consider a lot of Heroist arguments lost to the "I'm right you're wrong" defense. I got in a near shoutin' match with R&H over the Xmas contest, I felt that the three of us were being cheated out of recognition for our terrible games because they changed the rules at the last second, it's like when parents try democracy and hold a vote to see what the kids want to do, and when they find that the kids disagree with them they say "My vote counts as two". "Because I say so!" is never a good argument to back yourself up with. (And BTW, I was never satisfied with the contest compromises either, and probably won't be able to respect their judgment or leadership at all until a winner is declared (And given their due, the Reasonably Septaweekly Cover (Not that that's gonna do much for their terrible game, but it's what was promised)))

Although now that we're the OHR community again rather than Heroist utopia land, I'd like to see R&H spend more time on what they do best, which is of course making games.

But I would like to point out that it's a bit amusing that more people seem to disagree with Heroists now than when they were running Zan. I don't know if that's based in fear or anything, or just wanting to make sure you're on the winning team, but if you disagree with something, say it. If you don't like the way CN runs things, don't feel obligated to pretend that you agree. I admire H&R for always standing for their belief. I remember Alvanista slapping "Hero" onto his name without even knowing what Heroism was. The Zan boards didn't so much spread the word of Heroism as it created a bunch of Heroism Yes-men, and there's no such thing as a heroic yes-man. The only path to true heroism is to follow your own beliefs rather than follow someone who will reward you with minimal respect for pretending to understand and agree with what he's saying.
_________________
BANDIT REVOLVER, DOWNLOAD IT OR ELSE.

http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/gamelist-display.php?game=620

[Rinku]

"As for most of the other people (not all) that started the Septaweekly Forum, what you do daily is a total abuse of power."

I object to this: if you actually go and read the threads on the septaweekly staff forums (http://pub35.ezboard.com/bseptaweekly for those who haven't seen them), what threads are examples of abuses of power? the review of kingdom hearts? the idea of episodic vs. non-episodic gameplay? the idea that games are to be measured by long-term fun? or what?

"I do believe you are generally trying to turn the community into something run solely by the Heroists' philosophies on game design (case: the method of moderating the Game Design boards on Zant)."

I object that there is no heroist philosophy of game design. There's mine, and that's all. Haggard also has some of his own ideas, but these are undeveloped and not put in writing yet.

As for the game design board: that was our job at that time: to run them based on what we felt was correct and incorrect game design, which is what we did. Fortis put us there for that purpose, and to do otherwise would have been a betrayal to those positions.

"I would likely not have recieved any notability or produced ANY games worth playing had I gone through the Heroist's path of game development. "

There is no heroist path to game development, where do you see one, exactly?

"I could see some logic behind the Heroist's methods of turning away newer members..."

When have we done this, exactly?

"But I would like to point out that it's a bit amusing that more people seem to disagree with Heroists now than when they were running Zan. I don't know if that's based in fear or anything, or just wanting to make sure you're on the winning team, but if you disagree with something, say it. If you don't like the way CN runs things, don't feel obligated to pretend that you agree."

I agree with this, and don't like it. I didn't like when Alvan put Hero after his name, etc. etc., but I object that the fear is caused by anything we do, but I would say that the fear starts out in people who are not sure of themselves. There are almost always in any community people who are not sure of themselves, people who try to become clones of others that are more respected -- look at any religion. Religions are the easiest things in the world to start, especially unintentionally, simply by being a person who thinks differently than others you run the risk of starting a religion. I remember this one meeting where Noam Chomsky confronted a bunch of his 'fans' and got annoyed at how limply they acted, always agreeing with whatever he proposed, this particular time he got so annoyed by their worship he stormed off.

[Blazes Battles Inc.]

[Rinku]

battle blazes: i don't recall any such incidents. could you go into detail about them? otherwise i'll have to assume you're making them up.

[HarlockHero]

i've never insulted ANYONE on the forums about the quality of their game. if i didn't like a game, i just usually didn't reply as i didn't finish playing it. the only place that i ever aggressively "insulted" someone was in arguments on the philosophy forum which is unrelated to the game design aspect of the community.
_________________

[Blazes Battles Inc.]

[Rolling Stone]

I was just thinking of how valid an argument against non-specific and unrelated elements of a community can be, when the people who argue it support it at the same time. An ohr community that encourages the makers isn't much different than one that encourages philosophy.

And James does own our souls. He is the leader of the community, and he says everyone plays for free, does their thing and should just try to have fun. He doesn't come out and attack anything or refuse to accept other people's ways of thinking.

Heroist game makers need to show more respect to game makers who use other philosophies, non-heroists need to show more respect to heroists. And if the people in charge are heavily philosophical, they need to present their philosophies, not enforce them. Even the fundamentalist Jew-hating president George W. Bush (I do have proof of that, so don't try the "You're a damn hippie!" offense) doesn't force us all to convert (Then again, that might be because it's not in his power).

Maybe it's because we're all pretty young, but only a very few of us even seems to understand the idea that maybe, just maybe, your ideas might be flawed. At least entertain that notion before telling other people that they hold a stupid opinion and that they're a stupid person for holding it. You're just pissing in the wind if you call someone elses philosophy stupid before hearing it out, and you're not gonna be willing to listen if you've already decided that yours is the be all end all of human thought.

To make a long rambling short, we all need to shut up now and then and stop being so hard headed.

I think that the Heroist/Non-heroist rivalry is proof of two things: That Heroism is flawed in it's ambition. It hopes to one day save the world, yet the most liberal intelligent minds here to the most easily led sheep are repelled by it, and if no one agrees with you, then you can't save the world, you can only save a group of cocky elitists. And a lot of other people here attack heroism without knowing what it even is, and if you don't know what you stand against, you may as well stand against nothing.

Don't demand that people agree with you, demand that they accept you. Calling every philosphy you don't agree with insane or evil isn't acceptance any more than Zete's calling Rinku a "God-Fucking-Moron" is acceptance. Maybe some of us are more intelligent than the next, but we're involved in the most fucktarded argument I've seen in awhile. My problem isn't with the ideas we all want to display, but the way that we propagate them. Stop being so fanatical everyone, it makes you look silly.
_________________
BANDIT REVOLVER, DOWNLOAD IT OR ELSE.

http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/gamelist-display.php?game=620