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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Soule X wrote: | | Quote: | | Okay, first: Don't reference FF7 as an example of gameplay. FF7 sucked in terms of gameplay. |
I agree, that's why I referenced it. It's the exact opposite of a game with a challenging level up system. And maybe if it had that it would have been a little more worthwhile. |
No, the problem with FF7 was that all of the characters were exactly the same. Use a good game as a counterexample.
| Quote: | | Yes, but if you wanted to get through the game without having an extremely difficult time you had to spend a little time leveling up. And I'm not talking about killing everything in one hit. I was probably high 20's / low 30's and I would still get my characters killed in just a few hits by some stronger monsters. |
Okay, that's why RPGs allow leveling -- so that players who can't come up with good battle strategies can still beat the game by ubering their characters. It's not a good argument for leveling to say that it's hard without it. I like challenge.
| Quote: | | Well, to put it in even more simplistic terms than I already did in my last post, there's a stratgey to leveling up effeciently. |
True, but who cares in the long run if it takes one trip to the inn or five? No individual part of leveling is difficult. It's merely time-consuming.
Here's the litmus test: What's the latest RPG you've played that relied on you leveling to maintain proper difficulty? Last one I can think of is 7th Saga, which is probably ten years old. (Great game, though.)
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I said leveling up is fundamental to the RPG. I'm pretty much just going to skim over all the agrument against that. It's kind of like arguing that most RPG's don't have medieval settings or don't use magic. It's just not true. And I think every game used to counter all my arguments has a level up system so there we go... |
First, there's a massive difference between "levelling-up" and "level-busting." The argument in this thread has been against the latter, not the former. Second, that most RPGs have a levelling up system doesn't mean that it's fundamental to the genre. You proved this yourself with the remarks about medieval settings and magic. Those things are in many RPGs, but if you take them away they are still RPGs because those are superficial elements.
And you don't seem to understand what everyone else means by strategy. Basically, what they want is an RPG where instead of just fighting enough to have strong characters, the player has to actually think through the battles. In a level-busting based RPG, all you have to do is keep fighting and eventually you'll be strong enough to beat your enemies. The problem with this is that battles against the weakest enemies and battles against the strongest enemies end up being mostly the same strategy: just attack until they're dead, using magic if necessary.
Well, what if your character didn't level up at all? When your enemies got stronger, you'd have to find some other way to beat them. Maybe there's some special equipment that can defeat them? Maybe they're weak against a certain element or susceptible to a certain status-effect? This is strategy, it makes the player figure things out instead of just levelling-up until it's not a problem.
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Charbile
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 106
Location: Blythewood
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: the experience system |
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Leveling up more than one needs to can be used in one's overall rpg playing strategy. It is usually not necessary, but the option is available and integrated with the rpg setup. The experience system models what happens when one does repetitive work--they become better at it and able to do it more efficiently.
If you put in the time, you will become better. This is found in all rpgs, usually in being weak at the start, to then be strong once a lot of time has been invested into playing through the battles and story arcs.
Everyone who uses the ohr knows a common grounding for this gameplay theme. The more you use the ohr, the better you become at using it. The higher your level, the more challenging projects you can take on. One could set their sights high and gain experience by undertaking an extremely challenging project relative to their skills, or they could work on ones with less challenge, but spend more time with them, gaining experience at a slower rate. So a challenge of levelbusting can be patience. |
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Soule X
Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 131
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I had typed a bunch of crap last night, but my comp crashed and I never got to post it...
Basically, I've never been arguing against non-level up strategy. Just because a game requires you to gain XP doesn't mean you can't have other strategies included.
| Quote: | | Okay, that's why RPGs allow leveling -- so that players who can't come up with good battle strategies can still beat the game by ubering their characters. It's not a good argument for leveling to say that it's hard without it. I like challenge. |
That isn't why all RPG's include leveling. Sometimes it is unreasonably difficult or even impossible to complete the game without it. I like a challenge, too.
| Quote: | | No individual part of leveling is difficult. It's merely time-consuming. |
This isn't true either. Anyone who's spent time on Final Fantasy's Power Peninsula knows that leveling can be very difficult.
| Quote: | | Here's the litmus test: What's the latest RPG you've played that relied on you leveling to maintain proper difficulty? Last one I can think of is 7th Saga, which is probably ten years old. (Great game, though.) |
True. That might be why I really don't like most modern RPG's as much.
| Quote: | | Second, that most RPGs have a levelling up system doesn't mean that it's fundamental to the genre. |
True. I shouldn't have used the word fundamental. What I meant was it was fundamental to a lot of the orignal games in the genre.
A lot of people are acting like I'm supporting power leveling or over-leveling your character (like with the Lete River trick). All I ever claimed is that leveling up is fun. It doesn't somehow suck the strategy or challenge out of a game simply by requiring a bit of leveling up. In fact, it can only add to it. Double in fact, if it isn't required it's more likely to be abused since after leveling up for a while you tend to want to stop.
The only reason I use Dragon Warrior as an example so much is because it's a game based greatly on leveling up. It's still a very challenging game; you still have to use strategy; and the main thing is it's fun. It was extremely popular in its time and spawned multiple sequels. So it's proof that leveling up can be fun.
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Soule X
Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 131
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This is a badly designed game. No game should require you repeat the same action thousands of times to progress. I don't just mean similar actions, I mean killing the exact same monsters the exact same way over and over again until you can move on. This is sloppy game making. |
That's one opinion. Another is that it is a well designed game. You should have to spend some time on some weak enemies before you can afford the equipment or gain the strength to defeat the stronger ones. I dunno, i don't really mind killing the same thing over and over again, watching the gold and xp piling up.
| Quote: | | Yeah, it sucks that games have gotten more intelligent and creative, doesn't it? |
Eliminating the need to level up is neither inteligent nor creative in my opinion, but alright sir.
| Quote: | | No, you mean it was fundamental to Dragon Warrior and its blatant copies. |
Okay, then that's what I meant...
| Quote: | | No, requiring the player to do the same thing over and over to advance at all DOES reduce the strategy in a game. |
Okay, take your most strategy-packed game. Add leveling up. Suddenly the game has no strategy... what the hell... you're right.
| Quote: | | There's no abstract thinking of any sort! It doesn't suck the challenge out though. It simply changes the challenge; Games that force you to level to progress challenge your patience, games that force you to think challenge your brain. |
Actually, I think both challenge your patience and your brain. And again I never said the game shouldn't force you to think as well.
| Quote: | | Using sales and the fact that it got sequels is an abominably retarded argument to support your point that something is fun. |
Well, I think the fact that a lot of people obviously enjoyed it, and enjoyed it so much that the developers decided that people would enjoy more games based off of it, which they did, is not a retarded argument to support my point that it's fun.
The nostalgia wouldn't exist if the person didn't thoroughly enjoy the game. |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Soule X
Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 131
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What was acceptable and enjoyable over twenty years ago is not necessarily so today. There are still plenty of old games that live up to today's standards, but Dragon Warrior 1 sure as hell does not. People remember the game fondly from back then and refuse to accept that things have gotten a whole hell of a lot better. This is common, and companies MAKE MONEY OFF OF IT. |
New games getting better doesn't make old games get worse.
If you no longer enjoy something it's because your own personal taste has changed, not because the game has gotten worse or was never enjoyable. |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Why are you still in this thread?
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Squall
is fantastic
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 758
Location: Nampa, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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It's actually a good conversation going on. I wish more threads were like this.
Carry on.
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Soule X
Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 131
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:36 am Post subject: |
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It's actually getting kind of pointless. Nothing being argued is even in relation to what I stated.
It's like saying, "I like the color blue," then having a bunch of people say, "Black has so much meaning. It can mean darkness, despair, death. Black is such a complex and amazing color." It has nothing to do with me liking blue, really.
For example
| Quote: | | It's easier to enjoy Dragon Warrior 1 when it's one of the ONLY RPGS AVAILABLE. Less so when there are hundreds of better ones at your disposal. Improvements in newer games make flaws in older ones more apparent. The old games that are still good do not exhibit these flaws. DW does, and I cited plenty of them. |
This doesn't have anything to do with DW being a fun game. All it says is that under certain circumstances (which didn't happen in the version of history we live in, mind you) it would be overlooked or seen as flawed.
It argues that DW is not the perfect game and that there are much better games, something I was never arguing about in the first place.
People did enjoy the game. The game heavily involved leveling up. Leveling up can be fun. |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Tic-tac-toe can be fun if you have nothing else to do. That doesn't make it any good.
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Soule X
Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 131
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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I never said it was the best game ever; I just said I enjoyed leveling up.
I do hold the game in very high regards, but I didn't really mention that in the topic nor was I arguing that.
I like tic tac toe, too. |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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