Castle Paradox

[Minnek]

Longe, I can say from personal experience that I learn more from having to push against huge limitations to achieve something, rather than not having anything testing my skill at all. So what if X game maker was designed for sidescrollers? I can still do mine on the OHR and most likely it'll surpass a lot of what happens in the X game maker's community (if it even has one.) Just like people think door when they think of the doorway to a room - I make do with a bed sheet. I even have a door ready to be put up - but I don't want to use it because I don't like it. Just because one can use an engine that's easier/"better", doesn't mean they want to/should.
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[Shadowiii]

[LongeBane]

Minnek, you just missed the point intirely. I mean to say that there are other fine engines that can help making sidescrollers and make them a lot easier to use. If, however, you choose to make it on OHR, it will be a lot more difficult as it was not initially made to create sidescrollers.
~BTW, shadowi, I am not saying anyone is stupid, so shut up. OHR can be used for a lot of other things, like sidescrollers, but /\ (it was not initially made to do so ) so doing such an ambitious can be much harder then if perhaps doing it on an engine that was initially made to do.

[Minnek]

I didn't miss the point at all, Mr. Longebane.

I prefer the OHR because I can test my programming skills better than in X game maker. I can learn better. The limits make it easier for me to learn, hence just because the X game maker engine is easy to use, doesn't mean I'm going to flock to it.
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[LongeBane]

Then okay minnek, do not flock to it. I do not disagree with pushing the limits of the OHR. However, I agree with eficiency and other engines can acheive more ambitious goals. It is like being the big fish in the bowl when you are in OHR. That is why you may like it once you get too used to it. You have an ability that others may not have. You can make non-RPGS, or super enhanced RPGS from OHR. Good for you. I have no problems against you. Good luck with your next sidescroller.

[Mr B]

Sirs, sirs... Please.

As I see it, the OHRRPGCE is a tool. No more, no less. As a side-effect of its design, it is better for some things than for others.

It was designed to make RPGs. However, other things can be made on it, also. It is often a bit more difficult to make other things, because the OHRRPGCE was designed to make RPGs on; not those other things.

Making these non-RPG things is often a work of great skill, for no other reason than because the difficulties in doing so have been surmounted.

However, I have to say that it's a bit like making model airplanes out of duct tape. Doing so demontrates your mastery of the medium of duct tape, but there are undoubtably better ways of doing it.

I do not see that CP is abandoning the intended main use of the OHRRPGCE, only that other things are being done with it also. The goal isn't to make RPGs, per se; the goal is accomplishment. Sidescrollers are as valid of accomplishments as RPGs, though making them on the OHR does seem a little silly.

Mind you, I am majorly impressed that it has been done -- it is a major accomplishment. But the accomplishment, I think, is less due to making a sidescroller than it is due to making a sidescroller on the OHRRPGCE.

[LongeBane]

Ah, yes Mr. B
exactly what I meant.

OHR being a tool for creating RPGs. It can be used for other things ...but it is not as efficient at acheiving those effects as other engines and methods. But if you do acheive this, than you have a skill.

~but back to refering to my article, I disagree with blindly using that skill. I did not really mention on entertainment purposes,
but a designer who uses programming abilities without discretion or care for the player's enjoyment is bad - bad. We must use our programming skills to enhance our game, not make it our game. We must not use our skills to show of our skills, because making a game is for the player, not for you (or perhaps both, but never just you).

[Minnek]

Tch. I make games entirely for myself at times - simply to test my skills. (No this isn't with the OHR, and I haven't done one recently either )
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[LongeBane]

Minnek, pow! (i dont know why i put this sound effecT)

Then you can test your skills. Make it for yourself. You can enjoy it..i guess. I never thought of that. heh.

[Me]

The OHRRPGCE is built mainly for creating RPGs, yes . . . it has all the things you need, text boxes, battles, items. But I disagree when you say that Trailblazers is "just a sidescroller." Trailblazers is a fabulous game in its own right. Retro set out to make a sidescroller, and just happened to decide to make it with plotscripting in the OHR. Why? I don't know, but I don't care why, it's a good game, a fun game.
Point being, the OHR has evolved with the advent of plotscripting from a pure RPG engine into an engine centered around RPGs, but perfectly capable of other game genres. While it may not be the best for said genres, you have to remember, it is one of the few that can relatively easily create a game of almost any type. Add onto this the fact that the OHR is completely, unconditionally free, and you have an engine that is a perfect sketchpad for games. That's what I see it as: a sketchpad. A notebook. Something you can use to jot down your concepts, get them down concretely, perhaps actually creating a full game, and perhaps just honing your skills until you feel you are ready to use a more powerful, more professional engine to make a game in a more specific style.
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[Gizmog1]

The OHR is not adapted to sidescrollers, yes. But, why should we all run off and use the best tool for the job? Hell, a kitchen fork isn't as good at killing people as a bazooka is, but, if I got a bazooka, I'd probably wind up shooting myself in the foot. I can't wield a bazooka, I have no desire to learn how to wield a bazooka. Yet, I can wield a kitchen fork. I know how to wield a kitchen fork to a high degree (Gizmog is King Of The Kitchen, and no one forget it!) and, if I needed to kill someone, I would choose my familliar kitchen fork over the bazooka anyday.

This quote here drives me nuts:
"because making a game is for the player, not for you (or perhaps both, but never just you)."

So, hey Community! What kind of game does Comrade Paradox want today? (In Soviet Russia, People don't make games, games make people! (Yes I realize that makes no sense! Think about it!)) I mean, by that logic, we should all be posting polls, and seeing what the PLAYER wants.

By that logic, it's also no wonder Longetech is upset by so many sidescrollers. He likes RPGs, and is disappointed by the recent insurgence of great Sidescroller/Platform games for his engine of choice, so, wants the designers to make RPGs for HIM! The Player!

I would say so far, I agree almost entirely with the points Minnek's made, and think that a Game Designer should only make games that he himself would enjoy playing. After all, this is a community mostly of game designers. Why should we wait for each other to make our favorite game, make your own favorite game! That seems to be the best way.

[Flamer]

people who wants to develop their skills are the ones that would go out of their way to make something out of something else (like the OHR adapted to make sidescrollers)
Minnek likes to develop his skills further than to use what is given (which may or may not seem boring)
...but the point here is that, you need to make a game for yourself and for someone else, like that someone else be a whole community, a group of friends or your one year old child.
making a game for yourself is all good and generally works, but some people need to make it for someone else, or else it'll float into an aimless fire of random directions and the next thing you know it, it'll never be released.
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If we were a pack of dogs, IM would be a grand Hound, CN would be a very ficious little pitball, and Giz...well, it doesn't matter breed he is, he'd still be a bitch
(no offense to anyone that was mentioned)

[RPGCreations]

[Shaede]

I see and understand what he's saying in that article. In some aspects I have to agree. In others, I don't.

A game is created to be fun to the person who plays it, regardless of what kind of game it is. The OHRRPGCE was obviously made to create RPGs, yes. That is it's primary function. The OHRRPGCE, because it also has a versatile and easy to manipulate scripting language, is able to make other games as well such as side scrollers.

Most of the people in the OHRRPGCE community do not have the time, patience, resources, attention span, or even the skills needed to make a great RPG. A great RPG is an interactive movie, in my opinion. It needs a wide variety of elements in there. Most other games don't. To expect everyone to use the OHRRPGCE's scripting language soley for minigames in epic RPGs is a rediculous notion.

On the other hand, using the OHR to make a game outside the RPG genre can be a little tedious. The OHR is not a very powerful engine to create a sidescroller with. It's functions are not created for Dating Sims, Tactics style RPGS, Zelda style games, Sidescrollers, RTS, etc in mind. Thats not what it was intended for. Does it's intentions matter, though? Not really. There may be a great Dating Sim maker out there. But would it be impressive if someome managed to make a Dating Sim from a Dating Sim maker? Not really. Is getting a Zelda-like dungeon out of a Zelda ROM editor impressive? Not really. By making the engine do something it wasn't made to do is to show the power and versitility the engine has, as well as the creativity of the maker of the game that pushed those limites.

So, in short, games are meant to be fun whatever they are. As long as the game is fun, the game is good, no matter what the original intentions behind it's engine were.

[T-Master]

I haven't had time to read all your replies yet, so for the record I'm just replying to Longe's first post and those I skimmed.

There has to be a distinction made between a game and a plotscripting exercise. I have thousands of test.rpg, test2.rpg, testlol.rpg files on my computer, which are quite simply scripting exercises. I wouldn't make an actual game to test new techniques.

I agree with the basic sentiment of Longe's article. Too many "Check out my new battle system and menu system that isn't that hard to script" instead of "Check out my new game". I'll also agree with RPGCreations(assuming Fyre?) because the OHR is weak. Terrible sound, and a battle engine I find to be mediocre. Although granted, the scripting language is good.

Do I think people should stop experimenting? No, but I think the quality of such experiments are generally substandard. That's why I believe people should keep to making an RPG and supplementing it with excellent plotscripting, instead of making mediocre types of other genres.