Castle Paradox

Rolling Stone · **Bastard Gunslinger** Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 494

I kinda feel for the Heroists now as they seem to take a verbal beating here. We can trash talk them all we want but consider that And& (despite my hatred for it and all random battledom) is almost a perfect game, it fails in no area that it wants to succeed in. I only consider it imperfect because Rinku wants is updating it, which is uneccesary for a perfect game (Although I consider Metal Gear Solid perfect and then it came out again as MGS:Integral, that was a bonus package rather than an altered game). Also remember that Harlock's Horgoth is in my opinion and certainly others the best OHR game since FUABMXv4.

I appreciate their innovative game design, even if for every And& or Horgoth there's a failure with too many pointless trimmings (Tilde, Never Go West) and without them the community really wouldn't be what it is. But I also realize that it's not their games that have them losing respect, but their attitudes. Fascistic moderating, cheating the human day contestants, regarding everyone who disagrees with them as evil or insane, making fun and productive conversations turn boring and petty. I think they're two of the best game makers we have, and as people Rinku's intelligent and Harlock is deep, but as leaders of a community... well they fail miserably.

The games of theirs that are least popular are the ones that come across as being propaganda rather than games or stories. We don't take those seriously because in propaganda stories there are no characters, only tools to demonstrate the theme. The dialogue feels intensely forced, occasionally embarassing (My room mate chuckled when he saw some of the Tilde dialogue and said it sounded like an after school special), and that's all well and good for recruiting an army of simpleton soldiers, but we are an audience who wishes to appreciate the game on a level of art, and that person who's forcing propaganda is the player's voice. I couldn't stand Tilde because the main character was behaving in a way I never would have (He didn't exactly seem heartbroken when he found what's-her-face's dead body).

So sure Rinku and Harlock have been dicks from time to time, but I'm sure glad they're around. When Septa focuses on game creation rather than heroist propaganda (which is thankfully kept to a minimum in RS) it's gotta be the best online magazine I've ever read. Horgoth is the best NES RPG that's not for NES, my hatred for And& can only mean that it's perfect, the articles Rinku writes for Septa are second only to Pepsi Ranger's. Having a Rinku and Harlock belittlement festival is a waste of time though, especially since I'm sure Rinku stopped reading this thread long ago.
_________________
BANDIT REVOLVER, DOWNLOAD IT OR ELSE.

http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/gamelist-display.php?game=620

specplosive · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 6

ok, first, I never really enjoyed participating in this kind of debate, but I think that some new evidence could definitely shed a light on this question.

---------------------------------------

some of you may not know or remember, but I've been a member of the OHR community for quite a long time... five years, to be exact... of course, my individual projects are nowhere near the best OHR games around. anyway, I've always been a relatively low-profile OHRer (compared with the people who are criticized there), since most of my work consisted on collaborations on others' projects. not all these alliances had been positive, I admit. I've wrote articles and reviews for the old OHR news service (Cloud's), RPG Online and Operation:OHR. I've been a member of Red Murdock and Insight Games, although I got expelled of the first and the second got dismantled before I released any project with them. I've participated in projects directed by Moogle1 and PepsiRanger, among others. so I think I am aware of the general evolution of the OHR community over time

----------------------------------------------

--------On argument 1 : "The heroists initiatives were harmful to the community."

back to the subject....one of the things that may have caused the problems on Zantetsuken was that as the community got bigger, there was more difference of age and experience between the OHRers. but people who make game for fun and others who take game design more seriously can cohabit in the same community...that's not the main problem

several events were very harmful, in my opinion, to the OHR community. first, the "company war" that took place between Insight Games and Red Murdock Software, mainly. this led many people to believe only a big team could make good games, while quite a few of the best OHR games have been made by teams of more than 2 people. next, a long period (beginning around the company war and until ChaosNyte left Operation:OHR) where reviews seemed to be the most important thing in game design. as a reviewer, I even got flamed for giving scores too high to games that didn't deserve them... it confirmed my opinion that people only care about the scores, and that's why I suggested to the OHR Monthly staff to remove any "grade" in their review (which they had already decided to do at this time). the top 30 was also part of this "score frenzy", I think, although people seemed to like it for some reason I've never really understood

but the most recent trend that put the OHR community downward is the "contest-mania". for some time, 90% of the games released were for contests or were tech demos of plotscripting features (it looked like the VERGE community). so I honestly think that the design articles in OHR Monthly did help reduce that trend, and made people think real game design does need effort and planning.

-----On argument 2 : "The heroists are dogmatic."

note also that I'm among the few people (with Brynjard Tristan) that could argue repeatedly with whose you class among the heroists - on the ohr philosophy board - without getting mad at them. why ? I guess it's because I was arguing only for my own knowledge, and didn't try to convince anyone besides myself. it's a fact though that most of these arguments were matters of definitions, and since heroism is widely inspired from objectivism, knowing the objectivist definitions of selfishness, evil, etc. (instead of the typical religious definitions) helped me understand their points.
(I've played Tilde... and it may look like propaganda... but considering it's a dystopia, isn't it normal all the concepts are brought to their extreme applications ?)

quite a long post, but it'll likely be my only one on this thread. oh, a final note. I don't mind if I was never able to change anyone's opinion on the philosophical threads of Zantetsuken... I don't understand why many of you are so obsessed about having this kind of influence... all the arguments I've participated on these boards helped me raise my own standards, and I must say that I'm gradually witnessing how much I improved in philosophy by these discussions.

- Specplosive

specplosive · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 6

....all the arguments I've participated on these boards helped me raise my own standards, and I must say that I'm gradually witnessing how much I improved in philosophy by these discussions.

- Specplosive

Chaos Nyte · Reviewer Joined: 03 Jan 2003 Posts: 511 Location: Hirakata

"...where reviews seemed to be the most important thing in game design. as a reviewer, I even got flamed for giving scores too high to games that didn't deserve them... it confirmed my opinion that people only care about the scores..."

Not true. Here's my view on reviews.
1. A game designer submits their game for review, this means that they want a critique of its good and bad points, how it can be improved, and a very public way of spreading the word that their game is out.

2. So a reviewer has to be accurate and completely truthful about a game and its design in all aspects. If a reviewer isn't, if s/he gives out pity points or doesn't cover all aspects of the game, then they are doing a great disservice to not only the game designer but also the community.

3. While reviews are important, since they help game designers improve their games and give the public a good idea of what the game is like, it does not mean that the majority of OHRers only care about their scores.

So yeah, of course you were flamed for giving out high scores for games that didn't deserve them, it was misleading and unhelpful. People don't care about good scores as much as they care about getting their games evaluated and judged well, which leads to friction, regardless of "scores".

specplosive · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 6

"So a reviewer has to be accurate and completely truthful about a game and its design in all aspects."

I agree on that point, and that's what I've always did. However, the evidence that backs up my idea (that people only cared about scores) is that I was never flamed for saying anything inaccurate or false about a game (i.e. for the text of the review), only for the score at the end*. So I'm correct in saying that these problems wouldn't have existed if we didn't put scores in reviews (as the scores by themselves have no importance to the author, only the text of the review has.. ).

*For example, some people gave an average game 60%, a good one 70%, and a very good one 80%. I was giving an average game 60%, a good one 80% an a very good one 90%. It's only that my scores were more like a "bell curve" (like an IQ score... the difference between an IQ of 120 and 130 is bigger than between 100 and 120, because it gets more and more difficult to get one point higher). So basically I got flamed by using a different review system (note that at RPG Online, reviews had no "partial" scores for graphics, music, etc... only a final one).

Uncommon · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:00 pm Post subject:

Quite a few fine points here.

Rolling Stone · **Bastard Gunslinger** Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 494

To tell the truth though, one of my favorite games recently was a tech demo. M.I.A. by Valiant Warrior. The story is brief, complete and simpler than Rain Man. The gameplay is just Metal Gear transplanted into the OHR. Admittedly, that's like giving someone a heart transplant bigger than their entire torso, and it shows in the pathetically bad slowdown, but the game gets the point across that you can be sneaky if you want. Of course, like OHR tactics, that's all there is to it. I still see your point though as I want to see these tech demos carried out to full games dammit!
_________________
BANDIT REVOLVER, DOWNLOAD IT OR ELSE.

http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/gamelist-display.php?game=620

Uncommon · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:08 pm Post subject:

You lost me... I don't remember any mention of that in this thread. Perhaps I'm just forgetful?

Chaos Nyte · Reviewer Joined: 03 Jan 2003 Posts: 511 Location: Hirakata

A bit of irony here.

1. Shiz's OHR Forums have not gone up, and from my conversations with him, won't be going up.

2. Septa has basically been canceled by Rinku, as seen in the LJ community for it.

3. Septa's forums haven't been posted in for a month.

Sorry, I just found this rather amusing, considering the topic at hand.

Uncommon · Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 8:50 pm Post subject:

Indeedy do.

Rinku · Joined: 02 Feb 2003 Posts: 690

"3. Septa's forums haven't been posted in for a month. "

we've actually moved to a new undisclosed location. if anyone would like to know this location, you can try asking me in #ohrrpgce or #rpgcreations, on the espernet server, but it will remain publicly undisclosed except to game designers.

MultiColoredWizard · Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 11:28 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I've been waiting on 'acceptance' for a while now.

Rolling Stone · **Bastard Gunslinger** Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 494

Rinku, can we at least see the content that was going to be in Septa?
_________________
BANDIT REVOLVER, DOWNLOAD IT OR ELSE.

http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/gamelist-display.php?game=620

Rolling Stone · **Bastard Gunslinger** Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 494

Rinku, can we at least see the content that was going to be in Septa?
_________________
BANDIT REVOLVER, DOWNLOAD IT OR ELSE.

http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/gamelist-display.php?game=620

no_shot · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 5:11 pm Post subject:

BEYAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

I loves arrogant peoples.

Be seein ya on #ohrrpgce ya sexay vet'rens.

U r00l!
_________________
Play Horrible Fantasy NOW!