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Castle Paradox
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8bit
Clutcher of toes.
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 110
Location: In the thoughts and dreams of all the world's children.
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 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Chenzi wrote: | | asking for too much help is in regards to a newbie game. |
I have no idea what that means. "Is in regards to a newbie game?" What are you trying to say? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just want to understand the point you are trying to make.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Chenzi wrote: | | I hate to tell you Rya, but you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Cliché games are the top market sellers. |
That doesn't make them any better.
And your examples are really weird, FFVII, Disgaea and Legend of Legaia are all successful games which are at least partly original and they are all good game-design wise.
But there are even more original games which are quite awesome, but not very popular or only semi-popular like Passage, Gravitation and Yume Nikki or if we go into the commercial area Katamari Damacy and Shadow of the Colossus or if you think of RPGs then Emphemeral Fantasia. These games are all by far better than any cliched games no matter how popular they got.
| Quote: | This is of course, talking about market success/failure as opposed to enjoyability factor. Some original game can be really enjoyable, but if I've realized anything over the years is that people who play RPGs want to see main things:
1. Increasingly large numbers, denoting damage/money/another variable.
2. The same story that they've seen a million times, change scares people.
3. Replayability |
I couldn't disagree more. Those are more like the 3 most unneeded points in a game. Well, large numbers are good for many players, but don't really make a game any better. Too many variables just make it too complicated. The same story is a big NO NO. Anyone who makes an unoriginal story just should stop making RPGs altogether instantly. Replayability sounds nice in a review, but seriously doesn't make a game better either. Games should only be played once. The only reason to really replay it is because it's an awesome game to begin with and not because it has a high replay value. This can also be pretty much seen with animes, Death Note is the best anime ever (discussable) but it has absolutely no replay value. It's totally pointless to watch it a second time even if you are a big fan you won't watch it again. Yet the anime is both awesome and popular.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Chenzi wrote: | | Also, getting back to this thread, asking for too much help is in regards to a newbie game. Seeing how I've release plenty of titles on my own and in collaboration with others, it's laughable to see people trying to throw what I said in my face. |
Did you make anything to proof that you are a good game designer, though? Good enough to attempt making a game as popular as cave story? Give me some links, then I'll see if you got talent.
So far I've only seen two* people in this community that I expect to be able to create an 'epic' game.
* - three if I include comedy genre
Edit: I can just tell you that your "I need help with 3000 quests to make a game as awesome as Cave Story" made me laugh in the exact same way you described here.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Chenzi
User was banned for this post
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 190
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
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You are right I shouldn't feed you more. :p
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Chenzi
User was banned for this post
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 190
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: |
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OHHH I SEE WHAT YOU DID THAR
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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LeRoy_Leo
Project manager
Class S Minstrel
Joined: 24 Sep 2003
Posts: 2683
Location: The dead-center of your brain!
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Chenzi wrote: | | I hate to tell you Rya, but you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Cliché games are the top market sellers. |
That doesn't make them any better. |
Although it is true that many games today have the same damn plot devices and basic premises (Never give up! FRIENDSHIP FTW!) they are still grossly popular. Why? Good graphics, innovative game play and features (Oooo, the weapons level up too!), the power of brand names (FFanything will sell), comradery, and the list goes on and on.
| Quote: | This is of course, talking about market success/failure as opposed to enjoyability factor. Some original game can be really enjoyable, but if I've realized anything over the years is that people who play RPGs want to see main things:
1. Increasingly large numbers, denoting damage/money/another variable.
2. The same story that they've seen a million times, change scares people.
3. Replayability |
| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | The same story is a big NO NO. Anyone who makes an unoriginal story just should stop making RPGs altogether instantly. |
I agree for the most part, but who are we to tell the Japanese to retire? 
As for replayability, I think if the game gives you alternative endings based on how you played through it, that is forgivable. I personally won't play through a game again if it's the same thing more than once. It's like a book in that sense, for me. I almost never re-read a book, because I memorize it the first time through. Once a game is played, it is stored by the memory, sometimes really deep in the brain where only certain stimuli can activate it. Sometimes remembering a game also triggers more advanced memories. Ah, the Adventures of LoLo. The smell of my old house is coming back to me now. I can almost smell my basement, where I played the NES for hours on end while everyone else was outside running around aimlessly like idiots.
What were we talking about? 
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Rya will probably argue in response that only the top games like Missing are fully original. The actual issue brought up is that he believes some people should not make games if they are the same. How many games ARE the same? Not very many.
Cliches are just sore thumbs. Usually games still manage to have personal taste and approach to their stories and worlds regardless. This is very acceptable, and not worth judging as not worthy of making games.
There ARE signs of actual copying from other developers (see: Limbo of the Lost), but I highly doubt these kinds of games were what was being talked about.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | innovative game play and features (Oooo, the weapons level up too!), |
Innovative gameplay and features actually make games original, so those games are not the ones I complain about. But I wouldn't say many games have this. Weapon level up system is boring and already exists in multiple games, plus it's not very innovative, so this isn't a good example.
| Quote: | | As for replayability |
I never said it's bad to add replayability, I just said that it won't make the game any better. This is because if you have a bad game, even if it has 1000000 different endings, nobody will play it through twice. Replay value is only useful if the game is good to begin with aka "Man I really want to play this game again but I don't wanna go through the same story... wait! There's another possible path? Yay, I'll try that one!".
| Quote: | | Cliches are just sore thumbs. Usually games still manage to have personal taste and approach to their stories and worlds regardless. This is very acceptable, and not worth judging as not worthy of making games. |
I guess I'm more critical than that. Just adding 'personal taste' doesn't really make the game worthwhile. But this is different from game to game. Valkyrie Profile for example still uses a standard level-up system, yet I think it's original enough to be worthwhile because of the battle, dungeon and world map system (and also the story to some extend). On the other hand there's Dragon Quest VIII, which has a few changes to the system (you can level up your weapon skill) and the graphics are now 3D. However the battle system is still round based with the same "some attacks attack all, some attacks attack a group and some attacks attack one and you also have buffs" tactic. The monster are mostly the same. Most monsters only have a generic attack. The tough grind is like from the 90s. The features like casino, bank, arena have been in more than 1000 RPGs already, not to mention that all these features are boring. This game isn't worth it at all.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I guess I'm more critical than that. Just adding 'personal taste' doesn't really make the game worthwhile. |
I've seen worthwhile games that still have cliche elements. It isn't worth condemning the developers to never make games again because of this.
(I'm pretty sure DQVIII has a fanbase).
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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DQVIII has a fanbase, but most of them only wanted 'MORE DQ' and the remaining ones just bought it because the graphics are from Akira Toriyama. Plus, most DQ fans I asked suggested me to try out DQ 4 or 5 instead. I never heard someone saying you should try out Star Ocean instead of Valkyrie Profile, if anything they ask you to play both. For me that's a clear difference.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Game series rarely reach the peak of predecessors the 2nd time, but from what I'm researching, DQVIII doesn't seem to be a train wreck at all. There are people that seem to have enjoyed the game.
As far as I'm seemingly able to tell, games can be enjoyed even if they aren't fully original concepts. Execution is highly important.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Well yeah I can agree to some extend, because if I really love a game and then another game copies some features I liked, I'll like that other game too most likely.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Well yeah I can agree to some extend, because if I really love a game and then another game copies some features I liked, I'll like that other game too most likely. |
The discussion you jumped into is about cliches (or I'm assuming they were), not games copying specific features from each other. You know, saving princesses, evil warlords, dragons, magic, heroes that must always use a sword, etc... I get the feeling you were never on the same page, because of the definition of cliche.
So yeah...
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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