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Castle Paradox
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Rya.Reisender Snippy

Joined: 18 Jan 2008 Posts: 821
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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I like Kirby a lot. |
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Newbie_Power

Joined: 04 Sep 2006 Posts: 1762
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Well you don't really try to understand my point at all. I'll keep with the opinion that you don't have to make a game that others enjoy at all. It's something that you could do, but you aren't forced to. It's not a given fact. | Alright. That is possible, but to please both yourself and your audience, while managing to stretch your vision and gameplay to the audiences' minds and hands... That's the work of someone who knows what he's doing. _________________
TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Jack the fool

Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 773
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Rya.Reisender wrote: | I'll keep with the opinion that you don't have to make a game that others enjoy at all. It's something that you could do, but you aren't forced to. It's not a given fact. |
If you don't care that others won't find it enjoyable, nor do you care what others think about it at all, then what's the point of it being advertised or even released?
I played your game, and in my personal opinion, I think it blows. There's no motivation, and you've stated there's no story or appeasing ending; so why should I play it? The fighting isn't even 'tactical', and being able to just run from each one makes it all unnecessary.
I made it to the second level and quit because the music was annoying, and I wasn't having fun at all.
The only people I can see liking this game are people who overly enjoy mazes, or like grinding through the same 5 or so enemies over and over. These two ideas do not make a good game. They can be a part of a game, but alone, it's boring. _________________
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The Drizzle Who is the Drizzle?

Joined: 12 Nov 2003 Posts: 432
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think this game is as brutally bad as everyone is making it out to be. Personally, I thought that the idea behind it was pretty good and it doesn't matter to me at all that there wasn't a story to it. There are plenty of games out there without an explicit story and if you're more into gameplay than story, then who cares? Some people care about stories, but what about games like centipede or space invaders with no real explicit story? Centipede is about an attacking centipede, space invaders is about invaders from space, and this game is about a guy trying to escape from a maze. I don't understand what the hubbub is about.
And although I said I like the idea, I think the problem is in its execution. I played through the first level and lost interest. There simply aren't enough enemies and moves to make battles interesting. There should've been AT LEAST twice as many more enemies and moves, and each battle should be about discovering a way to win, which didn't seem to be the case. The battle mechanics are really more gimmicky rather than innovative. Something more could've been done to make them interesting.
There are so many tools available within the engine that could make for some very, very interesting battles using the idea you started with. Think about all the things that could be done if you'd used elemental attacks and enemy types, and made hundreds of attacks. The possibilities for battles would be almost limitless since the hero would have hundreds of moves, unlike typical rpgs. Basically, I think there are plenty of little changes that could be made to make this a better game. I agree with Newbie's prognosis that this seems to be more of a prototype battle system than a finished one. _________________ My name is...
The shake-zula, the mic rulah, the old schoola, you wanna trip? I'll bring it to yah... |
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Rya.Reisender Snippy

Joined: 18 Jan 2008 Posts: 821
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I still think the fighting is very tactical. Not as much as in Darkmoor Dungeon, but more than in most other OHRRPGCE RPGs. And you can't run from the last some battles. If you run too often on early battles you won't have enough exp and items to beat the game at the end.
Also you can switch off the music if you don't like it, they are just some of my favorite musics and apparently I should have added more but oh well. ^^'
I already stated the reason why I released it so I won't reply to it again.
Also the second floor has 4 more different enemies. =)
Quote: | There are so many tools available within the engine that could make for some very, very interesting battles using the idea you started with. Think about all the things that could be done if you'd used elemental attacks and enemy types, and made hundreds of attacks. The possibilities for battles would be almost limitless since the hero would have hundreds of moves, unlike typical rpgs. |
This would make the game too complicated and then I personally wouldn't enjoy it anymore. Someone like me that keeps complaining about games being too complicated just shouldn't make a complicated game. ^^'
I wanted to make tactical battles with just very view and easy to understand options.
Last edited by Rya.Reisender on Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Moogle1 Scourge of the Seas Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner


Joined: 15 Jul 2004 Posts: 3377 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Gameplay is not entirely subjective, like graphics and music. Looking at a game, you can say that the graphics are objectively good or bad. Listening to it, you can assess whether the music is good or bad. Playing it, you can tell if the gameplay is good or bad.
It's a cop-out to say that something is subjective. Relativity just means nothing has a definition and therefore nothing is worth anything. You can't honestly say that there are no absolutes, because that is an absolute statement.
Your game is good or it is bad. I don't know; I haven't played it yet. Whether you or anyone else likes it doesn't make it good or bad. The reverse is true.
People evaluate games on different criteria. Several of your players here value story highly, and those people dislike your game because your game's story is bad. Some people value variety in battles, and those people dislike that your game has bad battle variety. Some players value new and interesting gameplay styles, and those players like the good innovations in your game. Their values are relative, but the quality of your game is not. _________________
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RedMaverickZero Three pointed, red disaster! Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner


Joined: 12 Jul 2003 Posts: 1459
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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So are you're basically telling me that your general audience is yourself. Yet, you're going to release these games made to please you on the internet.
I mean that would explain why this game sucks. Sure it's got some neat little things going for it, but not enough to call it a good game. And saying a game doesn't need a story is a bunch of crap. Even games like NES Mario and Metroid didn't explain the plot in the game, but it probally mentioned things on the back of the box, not just, play the levels.
If you don't even at least leave something in a readme or something similar it won't add as much depth to your game, like the player will likely want.
And I'm assuming almost all the maptiles are ripped, since you already explained you have no graphical talent beyond drawing blobs of color and calling them creatures.
You set a bar really high for yourself when you came here and preached about how "great" you were and how much you knew about game design and so forth. I must admit, it was rather hilarious to see you fall way below the bar you set.
Good job.
Now go fuck yourself. _________________ ---------------Projects----
Mr.Triangle's Maze: 70%
Takoyaki Surprise: 70% |
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Newbie_Power

Joined: 04 Sep 2006 Posts: 1762
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | You set a bar really high for yourself when you came here and preached about how "great" you were and how much you knew about game design and so forth. I must admit, it was rather hilarious to see you fall way below the bar you set. | I'm honestly scared I have done this to myself after all that I've said. I hope I didn't come off as arrogant, and I hope to do my best to make my game enjoyable to people in order to make up for a lot of my involvements in these arguments.
Quote: | Good job.
Now go fuck yourself.
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 _________________
TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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RedMaverickZero Three pointed, red disaster! Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner


Joined: 12 Jul 2003 Posts: 1459
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Newbie_Power wrote: | Quote: | You set a bar really high for yourself when you came here and preached about how "great" you were and how much you knew about game design and so forth. I must admit, it was rather hilarious to see you fall way below the bar you set. | I'm honestly scared I have done this to myself after all that I've said. I hope I didn't come off as arrogant, and I hope to do my best to make my game enjoyable to people in order to make up for a lot of my involvements in these arguments.
Quote: | Good job.
Now go fuck yourself.
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I personally haven't played any of your games. But I mean, based on that, you are clearly trying to please an entirely different audience than fuck stick. You want to make a game people can enjoy, not sit and wonder why does this game suck, OH WAIT! The designer molded the game based off ideas he/she thought were fun but actually turned out to be a terrible effort.
It wouldn't be so bad if he would try and think about all the different things that can make a game fun for more than one specific audience. If you're only making a game to please yourself, that's all you're going to do and alot of people will hate the game because it doesn't meet their expectations of a so-called game. That's all. _________________ ---------------Projects----
Mr.Triangle's Maze: 70%
Takoyaki Surprise: 70% |
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The Drizzle Who is the Drizzle?

Joined: 12 Nov 2003 Posts: 432
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | This would make the game too complicated and then I personally wouldn't enjoy it anymore. Someone like me that keeps complaining about games being too complicated just shouldn't make a complicated game. ^^' |
Touche. Can't say much to that. If you like simple games, that's your own thing. I still think you could offer more in the way of not making the game seem so repetitive. You could always make more attacks that do damage and look different, that way the player gets the sensation that they can do more than 5 moves in the game. All games could benefit from a little post-release improvement.
Quote: | People evaluate games on different criteria. Several of your players here value story highly, and those people dislike your game because your game's story is bad. |
I don't know if I'd say his story is bad, it's more that there isn't much of a story beyond the implicit "there's a guy stuck in a maze full of monsters... get him out" storyline.
Quote: | I mean that would explain why this game sucks. Sure it's got some neat little things going for it, but not enough to call it a good game. And saying a game doesn't need a story is a bunch of crap. Even games like NES Mario and Metroid didn't explain the plot in the game, but it probally mentioned things on the back of the box, not just, play the levels. |
I still don't think games need a story at all. Stories help for things like motivating the player, but think about games like Tetris or Bust-a-move or crazy taxi. How much story is there behind those games? I don't think their lack of story makes them less entertaining. This game has some rpg similarities that might make people feel like there needs to be a story but it really isn't an rpg. You're not really playing a role in a story. It just happens to have a battle system that looks like an rpg.
Quote: | Now go fuck yourself. |
Harsh. _________________ My name is...
The shake-zula, the mic rulah, the old schoola, you wanna trip? I'll bring it to yah... |
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Moogle1 Scourge of the Seas Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner


Joined: 15 Jul 2004 Posts: 3377 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Quote: | People evaluate games on different criteria. Several of your players here value story highly, and those people dislike your game because your game's story is bad. |
I don't know if I'd say his story is bad, it's more that there isn't much of a story beyond the implicit "there's a guy stuck in a maze full of monsters... get him out" storyline. |
There isn't a story. If you value stories (which you have clearly said you don't), then you will dislike the story aspect of the game.
Quote: | Quote: | Now go fuck yourself. |
Harsh. |
And anatomically impossible. _________________
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The Drizzle Who is the Drizzle?

Joined: 12 Nov 2003 Posts: 432
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | There isn't a story. If you value stories (which you have clearly said you don't), then you will dislike the story aspect of the game. |
Is this directed at me? If so, then I must've been unclear, because I definitely value stories. I just don't see them as a necessity in ALL games. _________________ My name is...
The shake-zula, the mic rulah, the old schoola, you wanna trip? I'll bring it to yah... |
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Newbie_Power

Joined: 04 Sep 2006 Posts: 1762
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | I still don't think games need a story at all. Stories help for things like motivating the player, but think about games like Tetris or Bust-a-move or crazy taxi. How much story is there behind those games? I don't think their lack of story makes them less entertaining. This game has some rpg similarities that might make people feel like there needs to be a story but it really isn't an rpg. You're not really playing a role in a story. It just happens to have a battle system that looks like an rpg. | I think the concern in the first place was the lack of apparent goal in the game, rather than a full blown story. I agree that a great game can be made without a story, but a goal is a different beast. I am really not sure what to say about it, except not to assume that a goal is the same as a storyline. _________________
TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Moogle1 Scourge of the Seas Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner


Joined: 15 Jul 2004 Posts: 3377 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Played the game. Got to the last boss and died. Will retry later.
It's not bad. I'm not sure why people are saying they hate it because it's better than most OHR releases. The battle system is interesting and it's not long enough to be boring.
There are a few aspects about it that definitely are bad, though. First, mazes. Mazes are uninteresting dungeon design. No one likes mazes. I understand the necessity of a dungeon to wander around in and dungeons are inherently mazelike, but there are a million things you could do to make the wandering more interesting.
Second, the music. There's nothing wrong with the songs you chose, but there are two things wrong with the music generally: first, all the song files have a significant pause before they start up. This is really bad. I can get into fights and run away from them fast enough that I won't hear anything for a good twenty seconds. Second, not enough variety. I would've liked to hear a different track for each floor. This is a relatively minor complaint.
Enemy variety isn't bad but it could be better. I understand the necessity of limiting the enemy types if you want to have a different item per enemy, but one thing you could do to work around that is to include palette-swaps. For example, slimes drop the Power item. You could make more powerful red slimes that also drop the Power item. Really, the only point where enemy variety is bad is at the beginning of the game, but it's a bad way to start things out.
Difficulty is good, starting out easy but getting progressively harder. Making the Robot inescapable was a good move, if a little frustrating. The last boss seems way too hard, but I might have just gotten unlucky with sleep.
A full-blown story is unnecessary, but it'd be interesting to see some explanation as to how he can steal enemies' powers or why he's in the maze to begin with.
Graphics are generally good. The enemy graphics vary most. The Magician is ugly. Few of the enemies resemble what they're supposed to be.
Overall, the game wasn't perfect, but I enjoyed it. _________________
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Rya.Reisender Snippy

Joined: 18 Jan 2008 Posts: 821
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | And I'm assuming almost all the maptiles are ripped, since you already explained you have no graphical talent beyond drawing blobs of color and calling them creatures. |
The graphics are 100% by me. I read various pixel tutorials for this game. I initially just started it to try out my graphic skills actually.
I neither think that a game needs a story, nor do I think that making a game for yourself means that others won't enjoy it (my philosophy: "If I like it, there are probably some others who like it too").
But this turns into a "Yes, it is", "No, it's not", "Yes it is", "No, it's not" discussion.
Quote: | You set a bar really high for yourself when you came here and preached about how "great" you were and how much you knew about game design and so forth. I must admit, it was rather hilarious to see you fall way below the bar you set. |
I consider my game far better than any game I complained about (except SoJ and DD). I'm basically saying "Here, look, that's a game I consider fun playing, if you want me not to complain about your games, then make a game like this". So in my opinion I didn't fall below the bar I set.
And even if I did, as I stated before only because you can't make good games, doesn't mean you can't complain about good games. Think of all the game journalists. They can't make games at all, but they still bash games like Final Fantasy X like crazy and that's okay, because you can evaluate any game even if you couldn't make it yourself. Saying "You shouldn't be complaining about games if you can't make any better ones" is just stupid and narrow-minded.
Quote: | You could always make more attacks that do damage and look different, that way the player gets the sensation that they can do more than 5 moves in the game. |
Actually that's already in the game, on the second floor. =)
Quote: | I think the concern in the first place was the lack of apparent goal in the game, rather than a full blown story. I agree that a great game can be made without a story, but a goal is a different beast. I am really not sure what to say about it, except not to assume that a goal is the same as a storyline. |
The goal is to defeat the final boss at the end. Do I need to add that to the readme? I know many arcade games that don't tell you your goal and I never felt that I needed to know. I just played them because they were fun and it was never a problem for me to figure out what to do even without reading any manual. |
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