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Castle Paradox
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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 Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| hmmm modern latin, too bad i only have a classic formation then. I guess I learned a new word. Was is hominem then? a modern for homo or something else? |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:06 am Post subject: |
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See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
| Quote: | | Just because the ohr engine is old doesn't mean it cannot deal with details. We've seen graphical details (forgot the name but they bothered to make a climbing animation for the demo), we saw music detail, we saw plotline detail, and we saw gameplay too. The point is proven, it can be done. Why dismiss my questions on the sole purpose that it MAY not be necessary to do so? You take my questions as a whole. I see them as different cases. |
Apples and oranges. We're not talking about graphics or music or plot. We're talking about gameplay design decisions, at least in this thread, and I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to discuss the hero's hair color before you've decided who he or she is. You're theorizing on the finer points of a battle engine that doesn't exist. You'd do better to discuss whether/why the X command is a bad idea in Final Fantasy VI or Chrono Trigger than to argue theory in abstract.
You're suggesting that the fight command, for example, is a bad idea. I am arguing that any command is a good or bad idea based entirely on its context. Theory is only useful insofar as it is generalizable, and my generalization on the subject is this: that every command a character has should be situationally useful. If a command is overpowering to the obsoletion of other commands, that is bad design. If a command is never useful, that is bad design.
The question of whether a certain ability is good or not is pointless outside of context. Given a context, it is a very pertinent question the designer needs to ask himself. But blanket statements are not useful, not even theoretically.
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And your latin refers to "before humans" which I'm not too sure on the actual use here. |
Before is "ante," perhaps that's what you're thinking of.
| Quote: | | Was is hominem then? a modern for homo or something else? |
According to wiktionary, homo is nominative case, hominem is accusative. Ad takes an accusative object, so "ad hominem" is correct.
While Moogle is correct that any ability is only good or bad in the context of a particular game, it can still be useful to try to think of different ways to do things, just to see if any interesting ideas come up. No, we can't discover the perfect battle system by talking about ideas detached from any particular game, but we can find something that seems interesting and that could have a game built around it.
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | it can still be useful to try to think of different ways to do things, just to see if any interesting ideas come up. No, we can't discover the perfect battle system by talking about ideas detached from any particular game, but we can find something that seems interesting and that could have a game built around it. |
One idea I have had was making "drain" attacks a closer part of the game, where not only characters could drain with weaker attacks and the Fight command, but enemies did as well, so if you attack a single enemy in a random battle because it was stronger and let the others take pot shots at you, the other enemies would have more HP than they originally had when the battle started.
Add to the fact that enemy attacks were stronger than usual to make up for the player's ability to drain, this can make bosses deadlier.
Magic was much stronger than the Fight command or other physical attack skills, but cost either MP or HP (I never decided which) and they didn't drain enemy HP, meaning you had to sacrifice some survivability in order to weaken an enemy. Healing definitely cost HP, as the healer would have an HP cost to heal the other party members, while at the same time breaking the cliche of being the "weak fighter" by being an average combatant so that she could recover HP much better.
I haven't really implemented this in my current RPG, but I will definitely do so in the future.
The thing about J.A.R.S is that while he's trying to innovate, he suddenly thinks that all games that do not innovate the way he does sucks (except for Chrono Trigger). I'm not too fond of his attitude of "this feature is in all games. You are sinners for having it in your game." |
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The thing about J.A.R.S is that while he's trying to innovate, he suddenly thinks that all games that do not innovate the way he does sucks (except for Chrono Trigger). I'm not too fond of his attitude of "this feature is in all games. You are sinners for having it in your game." |
What are you talking about? He's said over and over again that he's not saying the fight command should be removed.
| Quote: | | not long after the introduction, the game [SOJ] crashed on my nightly |
I just now noticed this, and you can't play SOJ on a nightly. It has to be the game.exe that comes with it.
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What are you talking about? He's said over and over again that he's not saying the fight command should be removed. |
I don't have a freaking clue anymore. He puts so much padding in his posts that I just can't believe him anymore. |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Iblis wrote: |
Before is "ante," perhaps that's what you're thinking of.
| Quote: | | Was is hominem then? a modern for homo or something else? |
According to wiktionary, homo is nominative case, hominem is accusative. Ad takes an accusative object, so "ad hominem" is correct. |
Perfectly right. Ad is the exception, one of the rare who do not require an ablative... I should've known better, complete proof of how rusty my latin is now :S Ad is before in a physical manner, not temporally if I am correct though.
Once more though, I didn't say fight sucked. I said it needed options. And Moogle1, there is NOWHERE in this thread that you will see me talking about the fact that this discussion's sole purpose is bring the mechanics per say. The design elements of the characters are indeed inherent to the development. It is not only welcomed, it is almost required.
Also, note again that I have mentionned that I am a big fan of conservative games with 4 characters, magical spells hunting for 4 crystals representing each elements, so the attack on me regarding my craving for originality and my supposed pretention to detain the only possible innovation method is a wrong assumption which is proved by the very fact I asked to debate your ideas. If I thought I had truth incarnate, I wouldn't bother posting this thread, nor would I probably bother visiting communities.
I was asking myself a question, trying to find ways to improve on the variety of commands in the battle system, on the ways to bend its strategies in interesting manners. If you think this is a pointless discussion, allright. But I think it CAN bring interesting games and battle systems which in turn can bring enjoyment once these are made. This is the game design forum for god's sake. It is meant to show off design or tinker around design ideas is it not? I was merely appealing to people interested in the question and see what their take on it was. If you don't have a take on it, Moogle1, there is no need to drown the conversation.
And, against all odds perhaps, I like this simple drain idea of yours Newbie_Power. Don't be so swift to judge me. Just because I argue the points people bring does not mean they are not good point. But from a raw good point to a final excellent point, there is tinkering, and since this is a design thread, it can also be a perfect place to try and fix/reshape ideas until they are perfect gems. That's all I'm trying. When I bring forth my opinion, be aware that I am one man, aware that my opinion might not be generalized. I am fully aware of it, but it is no reason not to mention my doubts or fears when an idea is brought up, just like I fully expect people to have fears and doubts about my own design elements. |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Once more though, I didn't say fight sucked. I said it needed options. |
Some games DO give the fight command an option: Special weapons and equipment that make the fight command more powerful.
- You have elemental weapons that give the fight command an elemental attack property
- You have creature slaying properties
- You can make it drain attacks
- You can make the fight command do more hits per attack
- (Star Ocean 2) You can make a basic sword hit shoot stars out and hit the enemy more times if you have the Eternal Sphere sword
- You can hit all enemies with a boomerang or magic shooting sword
- You can steal and do damage at the same time.
... And more... Weapons are powerful objects. THAT'S why you are so focused on trying to push for character skills instead of weapons that make the fight command more useful. I just opened Pandora's Box and found the hope inside of it.
Seriously... It took me several hours of arguing with you to realize what the issue is. The whole time, you came off as "Fight command is uninteresting because it is just holding space bar to do boring non-interesting damage".
The solution is to just have character skills inherit weapon and accessory support abilities and make the Fight command extremely weak in comparison.
| Quote: | | Don't be so swift to judge me. |
I put my drain idea so people wouldn't be so swift to judge me. |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| btw Iblis. Sword of Jade also doesn't work with the built-in exe file. I get a lot of errors with my comp. Guess it would require dosbox too, which I'm not using... |
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Me
HI.
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 870
Location: MY CUSTOM TITLE CAME BACK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: |
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If I recall correctly, Live A Live didn't have a normal "Fight" command. However, that game used a bizarre semi-tactical-style battle system, so it was different from what we're used to dealing with re: turnbased rpgs.
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| J.A.R.S. wrote: | | And Moogle1, there is NOWHERE in this thread that you will see me talking about the fact that this discussion's sole purpose is bring the mechanics per say. |
Don't talk Latin semantics if you're going to follow it up with something as atrocious as "per say." (Hint: it's per se, meaning roughly "of itself.")
| Quote: | | I was asking myself a question, trying to find ways to improve on the variety of commands in the battle system, on the ways to bend its strategies in interesting manners. |
This isn't an awful question, but it's still ignoring an important point: variety of commands is insufficient and unnecessary for interesting strategy. If I ever find myself with some free time, I'll make a quick demo of a battle system where each character has only one battle command but where there is still a hefty amount of interesting gameplay decisions for the player.
Maybe a better way to phrase what I'm getting at is this: find a way to make the game interesting with only the Fight command, then you'll be much better positioned to make the game interesting with more commands.
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: |
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That's fairly easy in fact. Starting with focussing on the target system. Everyone can attack, sure, but when and what, in what order (using the shell monster of FFVI as an example too). There is yet lots to be researched with the fight command alone, on this I fully agree.
And sorry about the per se, I thought it was per see because I am not an english speaker :S I know a lot of languages, but few I truly talk "well" as you most certainly noticed...
And yes, live a live used a very odd battle system... and they added a lot to it, and i personally grew bored out by it... |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| I suggest you see my previous post as well and do different stuff with it than what I actually listed. |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Newbie_Power wrote: | | Quote: | | Once more though, I didn't say fight sucked. I said it needed options. |
Some games DO give the fight command an option: Special weapons and equipment that make the fight command more powerful.
- You have elemental weapons that give the fight command an elemental attack property
- You have creature slaying properties
- You can make it drain attacks
- You can make the fight command do more hits per attack
- (Star Ocean 2) You can make a basic sword hit shoot stars out and hit the enemy more times if you have the Eternal Sphere sword
- You can hit all enemies with a boomerang or magic shooting sword
- You can steal and do damage at the same time.
... And more... Weapons are powerful objects. THAT'S why you are so focused on trying to push for character skills instead of weapons that make the fight command more useful. I just opened Pandora's Box and found the hope inside of it.
Seriously... It took me several hours of arguing with you to realize what the issue is. The whole time, you came off as "Fight command is uninteresting because it is just holding space bar to do boring non-interesting damage".
The solution is to just have character skills inherit weapon and accessory support abilities and make the Fight command extremely weak in comparison.
| Quote: | | Don't be so swift to judge me. |
I put my drain idea so people wouldn't be so swift to judge me. |
The thread says what IF there wasn't a fight command merely to introduce the idea of OPTIONS. I personally don't even think I could come up with an rpg without a fight command (maybe people do, I just couldn't imagine it...). I'm not saying to cut it off, I'm saying there are options. And god, I'm keeping on repeating the same thing over and over.
So I'll quote myself:
| Quote: | | I'm not saying to cut it off, I'm saying there are options. |
the options you listed are a good exampleof that, although most seem to refine the fight command per say when what I meant was mostly options aside from the fight command (which I'd personally leave untouch although the steal/attack one seems like a good alternative to the regular attack one)
The idea of boomrang for example, ehances the current fight command which wasn't what I was talking about. There could be a separate thread on to how to ehance the current fight command, one conversation I am perhaps not willing to have actually, because I think the fight command is good as it stands right now...I also like the way Sword of Jade handles it too for this matter. But yes, ignore the fight command, I was refering to alternatives, things that can be on your combat menu right under the fight command.... Sorry if it wasn't clear then, I hope it is now. |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: |
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1) Your wording suggested that the fight command itself needed options.
2) Moogle1 just asked you to try imagining if the "fight command" was all a character had, then try and add strategy and variety to it. I just told you how to do that, and I just told you to go beyond that scope.
3) It's too obvious of a suggestion to give characters skills. Who DOESN'T give a character something besides Fight? |
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