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I suggest TILE GROUPS
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Fortis
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Joined: 22 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: I suggest TILE GROUPS Reply with quote

I've been doing a lot of work on my maptiles lately, and I've got a lot of multi-tile objects that are repeated (like 3x3 tile trees), and I was just thinking that it would be neat to be able to record "tile group", groups of multiple tiles, to be placed all at once in a specific pattern in the map editor.

A practical example would be the 3x3 tree I mentioned. The The Group would be the tree laid out in the 3x3 grid, and the whole tree could be placed on the map instead of having to be drawn a tile at a time.

It's a minor concern but I thought it could make a useful feature sometime in the future.
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TMC
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, this is a suggestion on the buglist:
'' . bug_title('250') . ''
Input on any details like interface, etc would really be helpful.
Multitile placing should support layers, while at the same time it would be nice to be able to place single layer patterns on whichever layer you wanted.

Also, I think the ability to place a whole block of the same tile (like the box tool in the sprite editors) is really needed. So perhaps that could support multitile patterns too, if there was some simple way to support staggered patterns and all that nonsense.

All of these features need a preview function: perhaps the tiles to be placed flashing, or checkered or real transparency. Then for the repeated tiling of multi-tile patterns, offset x, offset y, stagger x and stagger y buttons. If the staggering is not built into the pattern (which would probably be a better idea)

Really, there's vast room for improvement of the map editor. It might even be possible to expand the window to 320x400 and show the maptile set in the top half (or to show more of the map). Allowing use of the mouse has tyo happen sooner or later.

Other map editting suggestions on the buglist:
'' . bug_title('114') . ''
'' . bug_title('302') . ''
'' . bug_title('305') . ''
'' . bug_title('345') . ''
'' . bug_title('382') . ''
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Moogle1
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YES. I've wanted this for a long time. I can't think of a good interface for it, but some sort of "stamp" utility would be really nice.
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Mr B




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These look like grand suggestions (especially #382, which was mine *grin*).

I made another request -- for a "sampling" feature that would allow the map designer to change to another tile that is already layed instead of going through the tile browser (sort of like the "eyedrop" tool in MSpaint, only for tiles instead of colors), but it was deleted. Can anyone tell me if it was a duplicate or something? I personally would find it very useful.

Laying tiles in groups would be great. Sounds difficult to implement (saving extra data with tilesets?).
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was you? It was deleted because it's been a feature since the dawn of time. Try Caps Lock.
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Bob the Hamster
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moogle1 wrote:
That was you? It was deleted because it's been a feature since the dawn of time. Try Caps Lock.


We ought to think of another key to use instead-of or in-addition-to capslock both for selecting a tile in the map editor and for moving sprites in the graphics editor. It is a rather counter-intuitive key, and although it was easy to treat it as an ordinary keypress in the DOS world, it doesn't work too well now. The fb graphics backend supports it, but not without really turning capslock on/off, and the sdl gfx backend is totally unable to read capslock keypresses.
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Moogle1
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, that is an inherent disadvantage of using the Caps Lock key. If you're going to replace it on maps, do you also plan to replace it on the graphics editor? I'd recommend Shift+arrow as a sensible alternative in the latter case.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moogle1 wrote:
True, that is an inherent disadvantage of using the Caps Lock key. If you're going to replace it on maps, do you also plan to replace it on the graphics editor? I'd recommend Shift+arrow as a sensible alternative in the latter case.


Shift+arrow was severely broken in the DOS keyhandler (essentially, ALL non-numpad arrow keyes were shift+arrows no matter if you pressed shift or not). I'll have to check whether or not we can safely support it now.

Can't remember off the top of my head whether either of alt+arrow or ctrl+arrow are taken in that context.
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Mr B




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moogle1 wrote:
That was you? It was deleted because it's been a feature since the dawn of time. Try Caps Lock.

Heh heh, yep. There goes my street cred.

I never knew about that.

Is there a page that lists all the keypresses that the OHR responds to? I've found out most of what I know on my own, through experimentation or mistakes.

Just a thought. If multi-tile groups become implemented, they'll probably not be associated with maptiles, 'cause from what I understand eventually different layers will be able to host different tilesets from the same map.

Perhaps these grouped things could be drawn on the map, then copied and pasted? Perhaps there could be a map which is used as a template?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most of them are in HOWTO.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If those menu pages on the wiki are ever written, they ought to list all the key combinations available everywhere (generous use of templates probably).

Mr B wrote:
Just a thought. If multi-tile groups become implemented, they'll probably not be associated with maptiles, 'cause from what I understand eventually different layers will be able to host different tilesets from the same map.


Looks like we need a pattern editor available from both the tileset and tilemap editors. Each 'pattern' would only apply to a single tileset if unlayered, or a particular combination of tilesets if layered. A special template map wouldn't allow data to be saved with each pattern. (Oh! They could each have their own default passmap settings too)

Copy-pasting groups of tiles might be a separate feature.
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Fortis
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Paige wrote:
... and the sdl gfx backend is totally unable to read capslock keypresses.


Oh thank goodness, this must be the graphics backend I'm using. I thought it was because I was running CUSTOM in a Parallels VM in OS X and couldn't do anything about it (short of Boot Camp).

Is tab being used for anything? What about any of the letters (if they corresponded to the first letters of their functions they wouldn't be TOO counter-intuitive, right?)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAB is used to toggle that blue rectangle that lets you know roughly where on the map you are editing (I never found this particularly useful, but I imagine it could be for some). Not sure what letter ought to stand for placing a tile group, but that might end up being the way to go. Or, maybe if a user can assign multiple tile groupings, each numbered, we could use CTRL+number to mean place that tile group number.
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Camdog




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Mad Cacti wrote:
Looks like we need a pattern editor available from both the tileset and tilemap editors. Each 'pattern' would only apply to a single tileset if unlayered, or a particular combination of tilesets if layered. A special template map wouldn't allow data to be saved with each pattern. (Oh! They could each have their own default passmap settings too)


This seems uneccesarily complicated to me. Couldn't you just do something like changing the size of the brush (currently limited to 1x1 maptiles). I often, when creating a map with tile groups, do so in such a way that they look like a finished picture in the tileset editor. For example, a tree might have the top two tiles next to each other, and the bottom two below them. If we could change the editor so that more than a single row of tiles were shown, it'd be easy for a user to change the brush size, wouldn't it? (Speaking from a user's point of view, not a programmers)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TMC's solution seems to push too much complication onto the user; and I'm not sure whether Camdog's solution is the same as mine or not

Anyhow, isn't there a fairly simple solution:
* Store patterns on-map (as in, often where they are used directly --after all, the point is reusability
* provide an 'eyedropper' -- circular pickup of a pattern from the surrounding tiles
* and the method to draw with that pickedup pattern, as well as the method to alter radius (0 == normal 1tile)
* Preserve pattern across maps
* Invalidate pattern if the tiles used in it are not available on the map just entered.

ah, I see camdog means eyedropping from tileset rather than tilemap. In the scheme i described above, the feature could be available both in tileset editing and tilemap editing.
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