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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| J.A.R.S. wrote: | moogle1, gimme 3 reasons why I should play a "text game" 
(ok ok, i dont mean it as its impossible, but since you brought this game up, and you seem to like it, I'm sure you'll find 3 good reasons for me to try my luck) |
1. NetHack offers more ways to die than any other game (to my knowledge). Eat yourself to death or starve. Fall into a pit and onto the cockatrice corpse you're holding. Get killed about five different ways from that drawbridge.
2. NetHack is more robust than any other game I've played (TDTTOE: The DevTeam Thinks Of Everything). For every situation, there are about ten ways to die and twice as many to survive. That cockatrice corpse? Wield it as a weapon (remember your gloves, natch) and turn your enemies to stone. That drawbridge? Shut it (there are about five ways to do this, too) while your enemies are standing on it to crush them.
3. NetHack is much more fulfilling than any other game I've played, assuming you can beat it (it took me well over ten years). I've never been prouder to have won a game.
Also, women become demigoddesses. Come on, now.
You owe the Oracle three reasons why you wouldn't play a text game.
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You owe the Oracle three reasons why you wouldn't play a text game. |
1 - Back in the 90s I've played this game called AD&D (Dos text based rpg). It was filled with bugs, no plots, and no fun. This created a backbone for my aversion of the genre: Because a crappy text game takes less effort than a crappy graphical game, there are just way more crappy text games... anyone can do one!
2 - Whereas a graphical game can lack on the gameplay aspect or storyline (if we're talking about an rpg), it can STILL get you enjoyed at the marvel of its display and/or music. Let's face it, FFVI didn't have much of an edge over FFIV aside from its breathtaking graphics and music (for that time). If FFVI had been text based (like chrono trigger's semi sequel), it wouldn't have been half as good. No one would talk about it nowadays.
3 - Action. Just like a book pales in comparison to a movie as far as action is concerned, a text game is slow-paced (by its word). Now the most legitimate objection to this one is that it allows to emphasize on other aspects, but clearly, my subjectivity is whole: this is a video game, I expect it to be filled with action.
***Important note: There is this wide array of possibilities ranging from the more movie approach or book approach to a game. I tend to prefer a decent mix, and more importantly, I prefer freedom. Now don't get me wrong, but a movie that let's you choose can get boring, but a book that let's you choose is simply going nowhere. I agree that this is a very personnal point of view on the question, and I'm sure many people are oldschool enough to favor book oriented (aka text oriented) over graphical, but as far as I am concerned, I think most games have too much text anyway.
Let me use an example from a game I am currently playtesting (hopefully I won't spoil too much...) If the goal of the game is fear, having the hero talk about his fear won't generate any kind of fear. In fact, it will decrease the fear. Why? because it lets the mind of the reader focus on letters, which are no threath to his imagination. Having heroes talk less and images/music/sfx speak for themselves is going to succeed better in generating this fear factor. This applies to fear as well as a sense of urgency. Or action-related stuff... and the point of making a game is generating an action: the player must feel that.
I think that's why text doesn't get the edge over graphical.
Now, when it comes to why I wouldn't play a text-based game? because all of the above are criterias which guide me in my choice when I spend my limited resource (time) to gain the maximal enjoyment factor I can. Text games just don't suffice.
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Note from Castle Paradox Administration: | | This content has been removed by the user. Contact the original author and link them to this post if you wish to view the original content. Only the author can remove the tags hiding this content. |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| J.A.R.S. wrote: | | I think most games have too much text anyway. |
Oh hey great.
But if it makes you feel any better, NetHack has less text than your average RPG. Its text content is bloated by the fact that it gives you descriptions ("You hit the sewer rat!") rather than displaying a number on the enemy, but even including that, any Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior game has more text to read than NetHack.
| Quote: | | Having heroes talk less and images/music/sfx speak for themselves is going to succeed better in generating this fear factor. This applies to fear as well as a sense of urgency. Or action-related stuff... and the point of making a game is generating an action: the player must feel that. |
Then you'll be happy to know that there is almost no dialogue in NetHack.
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Artimus Bena
Admiral
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 637
Location: Dreamland.
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Machu
Righter, a person who rights wrongs
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 737
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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The windows version has a graphical version, called "tiled", I believe.
I just tried it. I died immediatly trying to ride the horse I started with and apparantly slipped and fell off twice.
what
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| Code: | [*]That's it
[*]I'm done reasoning with you
[*]Starting now, there's going to be a lot less conversation and a lot more killing |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The windows version has a graphical version, called "tiled", I believe.
I just tried it. I died immediatly trying to ride the horse I started with and apparantly slipped and fell off twice.
what |
Hahaha, that's the only way I know of to die on the first turn.
It's called "NetHack" because it's a child of "Hack" (which was so named for the action of hacking monsters). When it began to be developed globally, the developers adopted the name "NetHack" (this was a big deal back in 1987).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetHack
http://nethack.wikia.org
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Me
HI.
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 870
Location: MY CUSTOM TITLE CAME BACK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I believe IVAN has more ways to die than NetHack. However, Nethack is in a close second if it isn't actually tied. IVAN, though, uses a limb-based combat system, so you don't actually die until your torso, head, or groin is totally destroyed.
JARS, stop talking now, because you're making yourself look dumb. NetHack isn't a text game, it just uses ASCII graphics, meaning it uses text characters to represent the various items and obstacles in the game. An ampersand (@) represents the characters, D means Dragon, c is a cockatrice, S is a snake, etc. It's how games used to be made before people decided they needed "real" graphics.
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| And even then, he shouldn't be bashing text games. That's just sick. |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Me wrote: | | JARS, stop talking now, because you're making yourself look dumb. NetHack isn't a text game, it just uses ASCII graphics, meaning it uses text characters to represent the various items and obstacles in the game. An ampersand (@) represents the characters, D means Dragon, c is a cockatrice, S is a snake, etc. It's how games used to be made before people decided they needed "real" graphics. |
As far as I'm concerned, an ampersand IS a character aka text. More importantly, the game looks pretty much exactly like that ADND game I was refering to.
And unlike you, I was coding back in the days where text games were the only viable option (the initial basic with f****** line numbers...) |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Nethack is beyond 'Hello World' and number guessing games and Zork-like adventures. It has had YEARS of development. |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: |
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hey pace yourself guy. I was asked to provide with 3 reasons not to play games. I like rhetoric, but the point is, I actually intend to try this game. Remember Moogle's question
| Quote: | | You owe the Oracle three reasons why you wouldn't play a text game |
I did answer that, it was not closely tied to "Nethack" itself. Because clearly, I haven't played the game, so how would I know? |
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Jes42
Tourist
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: The green fuzzy bit on Google Earth
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Camdog
Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 606
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| J.A.R.S. wrote: | | 1 - Back in the 90s I've played this game called AD&D (Dos text based rpg). It was filled with bugs, no plots, and no fun. This created a backbone for my aversion of the genre: Because a crappy text game takes less effort than a crappy graphical game, there are just way more crappy text games... anyone can do one! |
Nethack has been developed for DECADES. It's hardly filled with bugs. It might be true that a crappy text game is easier to throw together than a crappy graphics game (though I'd say with tools like the OHR, even that's debatable), Nethack is worlds away from crappy.
| J.A.R.S. wrote: | | 2 - Whereas a graphical game can lack on the gameplay aspect or storyline (if we're talking about an rpg), it can STILL get you enjoyed at the marvel of its display and/or music. Let's face it, FFVI didn't have much of an edge over FFIV aside from its breathtaking graphics and music (for that time). If FFVI had been text based (like chrono trigger's semi sequel), it wouldn't have been half as good. No one would talk about it nowadays. |
Although I disagree here, the point is moot, because again, Nethack is in no way lacking in the gameplay aspect. Like Moogle said, it offers one of the deepest gameplay experiences that exist.
Also, Chrono Cross was text based? What are you talking about?
| J.A.R.S. wrote: | 3 - Action. Just like a book pales in comparison to a movie as far as action is concerned, a text game is slow-paced (by its word). Now the most legitimate objection to this one is that it allows to emphasize on other aspects, but clearly, my subjectivity is whole: this is a video game, I expect it to be filled with action.
***Important note: There is this wide array of possibilities ranging from the more movie approach or book approach to a game. I tend to prefer a decent mix, and more importantly, I prefer freedom. Now don't get me wrong, but a movie that let's you choose can get boring, but a book that let's you choose is simply going nowhere. I agree that this is a very personnal point of view on the question, and I'm sure many people are oldschool enough to favor book oriented (aka text oriented) over graphical, but as far as I am concerned, I think most games have too much text anyway. |
Reading your replies makes me think you should expand your horizons a bit. A book most certainly not pale in comparison to a movie when it comes to action. True, they offer very different experiences, but if you've never read a heart-pounding scene in a book before, my suggestion is to read some good books.
Also, if your primary concern is action, why are you at an RPG forum? The mainstay gameplay of the genre is turn-based, just like Nethack. Seriously, download it and give it a shot. Don't dismiss it because you're character looks like an '@'. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.
| Newbie_Power wrote: | | Nethack is beyond 'Hello World' and number guessing games and Zork-like adventures. It has had YEARS of development. |
Whoa whoa whoa! What's with the Zork bashing? They both might be text-based, but Nethack and Zork are two totally different things. And, like Nethack, Zork-style text adventures are still alive and well today, created by a fan-community. Check out http://ifarchive.org and http://wurb.com/if/. |
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Also, Chrono Cross was text based? What are you talking about? |
You're wrong. Chrono Trigger's immediate sequel is a rare game called Radical Dreamers. Chrono Cross was released according to bits of the storyline embodied by the SNES TEXT-based game. And trust me, it sucks big time, I'm glad they bothered turning it graphical 
You too camdog, should read what this was refering to. I got asked to give 3 reasons not to play a textgame, the name nethack was not specified. Though I agree there are gems in every genre, it just seems more unlikely to show up in the text-based ones (%wise). But as you pointed it out, there ARE gems. I think Moogle debated his point earlier on when he said this game was one. And as I previously stated, I will actually play that game.
Also, the emotions conveyed by books are undeniable, but adrenalin rushes? sorry a book never got me anything like that, nor fear. I never understood what people find frightening about say, Stephen King. Read the book throughout, you won't be scared by what's written, it is WORDS dammit. If you do get scared, heck with your brains, go see a doctor.
Also, the word action is to set a motion. There are cinetic motions in rpgs, and turn-based battles still use gauges. You can't plan your attack for days: its now. It affects your strategical judgement a lot to have a limited supply of time to react though there are probably text games out there which use this system too, so the point is weak indeed. |
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