Castle Paradox

[jabbercat]

Your identity? Lets be entirely honest, if your identity was really that awesome, you'd have your own team of game designers, unless your an OHR hero, in which case the above commen can be ignored.


(wouldn't this suck if this turned out to be someone I actually really admire?)
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Moogle no longer owes prizes.

[Moogle1]

F-F, sorry for the topic derail. Hopefully, we're just about done here.

Fyre, what Iblis said. I can produce a better game than another person who expends the same amount of effort. Conversely, if Fenrir and I both expend the same effort on a walkabout, his will still look better.

For an example of an almost completely effortless game that I personally enjoyed, see Giz's It's Dark in Here, which consists of a walkabout and a textbox. Granted, that's only questionably a game, but it's case in point that effort does not equal quality.

SoJ is an excellent example of a game that is good because of the effort put into it. It is not, however, proof alone that effort makes quality. Causality, generalization, logical fallacies! These are very poorly constructed arguments.

To conclude -- and hopefully lay this argument to rest -- it takes some combination of effort, skill, and inspiration to make a good game. None of these is essential; some of the best OHR games can be attributed more to inspiration than anything else.

Agh, this should be much better written than it is. It's 4 AM and I should be sleeping. Anyway, let's let F-F have his thread back, mm?
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Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

[FyreWulff]

You guys need to find a word other than "effort". Yeah, you could make a better game than someone completely new to the engine with equal time. That's called experience.

And F-F, you're already ripping by using Sonic in the first place. Nobody cares who you really are. This community was already destroyed by people that cared about status or names; it's not like any more damage can be done at this point. It's also been destroyed by joke games with no effort, skill, or experience put into them, but people are so avante garde these days they hail them as "works of art".

[Moogle1]

Fyre, you're basically saying that your argument works except for what it is you're defending. Also, you're smoking crack, because I can't think of a single joke game that was hailed as a work of art. The closest anything's come to that is Thanksgiving Quest, which was a darn good game.
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Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

[Gizmog1]

Maybe one of the admins should split this off into it's own thread, because it's a damn good discussion.

Also, I don't think it's experience, as some of the best joke games have used almost none of the OHR's capability whatsoever. Fyre's right though, effort isn't what we're talking here. Closest thing to what we're talking about is polish, and even that doesn't seem to fit.

But, for my theory as to why a 2 minute joke game that took an hour and a half to make can be better than a 20 hour epic that took 6 years, I'd have to say it's because in that 20 hour epic, there's more things that can go wrong. In the 2 minute game, the conception of the idea, the designing and molding of the idea into a game, and the final refinements and completion of that game are all taking place in a very short period of time.
The idea involved is undoubtably a good one, and the author is never given enough time to think and doubt about the greatness thereof. By the time the designer might be doubting whether or not it's a good idea, he's already released it.

That goes for the game itself as well. It quickly expresses itself, and when the idea is worn out, the game is over. The player isn't given a long time to reflect on it, or a lot of plot points to muddle the water.

Compare that to a longer game: There are many more scenes, any one of which that doesn't quite connect to the audience could seriously damage the whole of the work. If the music is annoying, even in just one scene, the player might turn off their speakers, ruining the dramatic atmosphere of the rest of the game. Not to mention if the graphics, story, or gameplay falter, the player might lose interest altogether.

What's more, the author of a long game has to keep himself convinced that what he's making, and what he's already made are good. I bet a lot of jokes you heard and enjoyed when you were a kid aren't quite as funny now. The novelty's worn off, and you probably won't enjoy it as much until you've forgotten about it for awhile. (With some exceptions. There's some jokes that will ALWAYS be funny, no matter how many times you hear them.)

That's what happens to a lot of game designers when they're making a long game. The characters and places that used to be wondrous no longer seem so great. So, they might go back and retool things that don't really need retooling. Not only does that increase the amount of time it takes to make the game, and run the risk of ruining the soup, that constant returning to, and revision of old ground can make the author lose interest in the progress altogether. (I love Resident Evil, but almost never play it anymore, because I'm tired of the first 30 minutes. I think it's the same concept.)

I don't think that it's impossible for a long game to be entertaining and engrossing, I just think that for the amount of time it takes to make one, you could make 30 or 40 short "joke" games that are just as interesting and rewarding to play, only saving the time and wear on yourself, and by it being shorter, more people are going to have the time to play it, and replay it, and fully savor it.

Let's take a look at the 20 Top Rated Games:

Trailblazers
OHR House 2
Sword of Jade 2
Thanksgiving Quest
Fantasy Under a Blue Moon X v.4
Put on Shoes Limited Edition Boxset
Bug On The Wall
Mr. T's Fantastic Adventure!
Lolsidothremalobine
Time Stream Saga Second Edition

Well, the gamelist is being weird, but that's the top 10. Notice, that out of that 10, 5 are joke games, 4 are standard RPGs, and 1 doesn't really fit into either category. (Although Strangely enough, none of the top 10 downloaded games are in the top 10 ranked games.)

The serious games have taken significantly longer to make, and yet, don't have a significantly higher rating, or download count.

I'm not going to say that every game should be completely foolish, but I think that a series of shorter (3-4 hour) serious games would have equal or greater impact than one long (20-50 hour) serious game, and would be a lot easier on the designers, as well as the players.

[Camdog]

[Zypher]

I'm not going to agree, disagree, or even comment on this. But I do have to say one thing; I agree with Giz on splitting this into a seperate topic. FF already declined from this arguement further more. So please either split it up into another topic, or just stop posting if you're not going to offer you're help. Thank you.

[TMC]

[Moogle1]

Not to be pessimistic, but posts aren't a great benchmark for liveness and 10-20 downloads per week is kind of low. The real argument for the deadness of the engine arises from the fact that, even during a contest for how many games you can put out, we can't get more than two new games a week. Anyone who's been around long enough will acknowledge at least that the community is in a slump.

[Inferior Minion]

[Zypher]

My opinion on download rates:

This site has an average download rate of games. People choose games of what they want to see. Joke-games are downloaded, but not mostly over other ones. But some people call games joke-games, that aren't. I mean I even heard some call BLB a joke game, and sadly, it is not. Giz's games are joke-games, but not all of them.

Then there are other games like OHR House. OHR House is a serious reality show-like game for entertainment and player involvement. These games are to be taken seriously, and if they are downloaded more then others, it's because they are simply superior.

My opinion on upload rates:

But I also mostly seen that upload rate hasn't been good lately. I really think the admins should put together a group project for newbs, sort of like Fenrir's Welcome.RPG. Maybe this and a little motivation will get people to upload some more games. I for one am glad we are not like some communities and/or game sites that upload very few games literally every two years.
*cough* Gamingw.net *cough*

I agree with Moogle, that people only upload games when there’s a contest. Contests usually motivate people to work on their games prior to anything else. I haven't done much in the games compartment to even argue that statement, but I will be adding more games. Hopefully one this year . I cannot promise Rogue Knights being out soon, but I will try for some other things. But one more thing I do have to say; GET WORKING ON GAMES PEOPLE!!

[The Wobbler]

[Zypher]

[Camdog]

[Fenrir-Lunaris]