Castle Paradox

[Jazz_Man]

I was sitting in #ParadoxLounge today, when Synial came in insulting Mormon Mission (directing it at ChaosNyte).

[Chaos Nyte]

I should probably balance this out a little bit. Intial comment by Jazz to my comment to Synial about why he isn't really a good person to critize Mormon Mission-
"<Jazz_Man> <ChaosNyte> Synial, when you actually go and finish a game yourself, maybe I'll be able to take you a little more seriously.
<Jazz_Man> That is the DUMBEST thing anyone's ever said."

And the "insults" that I PMed Jazz with-

"<Jazz_Man> Criticism doesn't mean you have to suggest improvement.
<ChaosNyte> But it does mean you have to back up your statements.
<ChaosNyte> Why was the dialogue terrible?
<Jazz_Man> You didn't ask him to, though. He very well may have, but you got really defensive.
<ChaosNyte> No, you got really defensive.
<Jazz_Man> No, I got annoyed when you thrw that comment out.
<ChaosNyte> That's you Jazz, always setting him in for the "little guy".
<Jazz_Man> Because, essentially, you're trying to render all of my criticism worthless, as well.
<Jazz_Man> ...dude... I'm not getting angry here... but obviously you are, judging by the resorting to insults. I'm not gonna bother arguing."

[Jazz_Man]

...if you're really counting...

[16:27] <Jazz_Man> ...dude... I'm not getting angry here... but obviously you are, judging by the resorting to insults. I'm not gonna bother arguing.
[16:27] <ChaosNyte> Seriously, if you had just let it alone, we might have had a decent discussion about fixing MM.
[16:27] <ChaosNyte> But you had to jump in like you were the moderator of the conversation, screaming "Foul!" because you didn't agree with me.


But... I guess I didn't mean you were insulting me, but you seemed to get really defensive... which wasn't my goal. Hence, I didn't bother trying to explain further, as it's useless when the other side is somewhat hostile (so it seemed).

And the reason I didn't post any of the "insults" is because the point wasn't you insulting me. The point was to find out what the general; consenses is about who should review games.

So, back on topic: Should the fact someone's never made a game be grounds to totally ignore their criticism? Does that make their opinion worthless, as CN claims?

[T-Master]

Of course not. They must, of course, at least have played a few games. Otherwise, it's akin to me critiquing the engine systems of a Boeing 727.

[Aethereal]

If that's the case, then perhaps I should just remove every single review I've written from this site, as I haven't made a true game either (I'm not counting OHR Arena - it was made in 48 hours and was too buggy to be playable). I do particularly disagree with CN here. Their opinion should not be based completely on what they have created or made, but also what they have experienced and seen for themselves. Saying that he can't criticize your game because he's never made one is like saying I can't criticize a movie because I've never made one, although that's the analogy Jazz provided earlier. I've heard you criticize movies before, CN, but I certainly know you've never been majorly involved in the production of a feature film. In short, criticism is criticism, there is no "you can criticize or you can't", there's only "I will accept this criticism" or "I will not accept this criticism", and the latter choice is very foolish.
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[Synial]

I don't bake cookies, but I can tell Martha Stewart is a bitch.

Heh.. besides the point I have WORKED on games (not completed, or made) *cough SiV *cough*, I definately have played enough games to determine what I like and don't. It is an opinion afterall.

Off Topic - (CN asked me what I didn't like about mormon mission, i'm gonna put it here due to the fact that he's gone. And i'm sure he'll be looking at this thread again.)

The worst part of this game definately has to be the dialouge. Especially with a title like Mormon Mission, which is obviously intended to be humourous. If it wasn't.. you belong in Utah... anyhow, back to the point. There isn't anything remotely witty or clever about it, and if it was intended to be as stupid as it was.. we have Arfenhouse. The difference is that Arfenhouse was humourous for what it was. This game has a 13 year old feel to it, not to insult any 13 year olds out there who make decent games. If you're 13 and you think you're making a great game, you'll look back in a few years thinking otherwise.

The plotscripts were very shakey. And I do not believe you run back and forth while being eaten... But that might just be me. The music was irritating me to the point where I tried to run into something to kill me, just to exit. Which happened.... Thank god.

I understand this is a contest game, ultimately rushed and whatnot... but this game is a chore to play nontheless. I'm glad you had fun making it, but I sure didn't have fun playing it.

__

Anyhow, back to the actual topic of this. I'm not here to discourage CN from making games (this game YES). It is partially because I know he is capable of doing better than this. I didn't feel too attacked by his "AT LEST I MAK GAM!!11 LOLOL!!!1111" But I'm glad Jazz Man brought this up, cause I would have just ignored it. And it is important that people express themselves despite not actively participating in something, hell. I don't make games, i'm more of an artist type. I know lots of people who can't draw a stickman who have helped me with critiques because they know what a goat looks like... why they know the goat anatomy so well.. I won't ask... but yeah...

Anyhow, this is getting too long.

Syn
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Shiggity Shwa!

[Chaos Nyte]

This is insanity.

"ChaosNyte> Synial, when you actually go and finish a game yourself, maybe I'll be able to take you a little more seriously. "

I didn't totally disregard Synial's insults about Mormon Mission, and I said so. I just couldn't take them seriously as I thought Synial wanted them to be taken. And Synial wasn't "reviewing" my game. A review takes in the sum total of a game and gives it a rating. Synial just pointed out everything he hated about Mormon Mission and didn't even finish playing it. And yes, sorry guys. If I were to get an opinion about Mormon Mission, from say, Aeth, who I know is working on a game and has worked under the constraints of a contest before, I'm going to take his opinion a lot more seriously then from Synial who couldn't even finish a game that takes 15 minutes to beat. Look at Shadowiii's review of Mormon Mission. Even if felt it was unfair, I still encouraged him to leave the review as is because I felt his review covered the game completely. The difference between Synial throwing insults out about Mormon Mission at me in mIRC and my not taking him seriously is completely different from how I, or anyone else, would take harsh critism in the form of an actual review.

[Synial]

Heh, you're right this is insanity.

You're right, I wasn't reviewing your game. If I were to review your game, I would have had to play all the way though it (incomplete reviews don't work... Geh.. I could never review Alundra 2). And to be quite honest, I think I would have more fun piercing my nipples with a nail covered in balsamic vinegar. I know you are capable of more. When you asked what was wrong with it I told you directly. And if you don't want my feedback, that's fine by me. But please don't let it be because I havn't finished a game. I have released 2 contest games with my brother, so don't give me the bullshit about " the constraints of a contest before". And yes, I don't expect much out of a contest game, Tunah... I'm embarrassed to have released. I hope there aren't copies of that still floating around, but that was a 48 hour contest. We didn't have time to impliment gameplay. And SiV we couldn't even release before the deadline of the contest due to internet connection problems.

I have also worked on games outside of the OHR so I know what occurs.. As well as watching my bro work on his games. I see the progress of his stuff much more frequently, I know how a game is made. And my opinion shouldn't be any less valid because of that.

If I had anything positive to say about Mormon Mission, I would have. But I don't. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. And if I have to make a game before you take my opinion seriously, than it is a very sad day.

-Syn

PS - Alunda 2 > Mormon Mission
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Shiggity Shwa!