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Fenrir-Lunaris
WUT




Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 1747

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd noticed the journal count too. I think it's on a time delay. This whole thread served the purpose of identifying another bug. Hmm.

If anyone really WANTED to, they could have found a way to get what they wanted anyhow, regardless of whether anyone on this site told them or not. Since the precedent's already been set, even before this incident, we're operating under the assumption that you CAN discuss things that aren't availible by honest means, so long as you DON'T provide any details on how to get them, nor can you directly hand them out. It's also in the TOS that you can't specifically ask for these sorts of things, neither can you provide them.

That's Gamefaqs policy, and just about every other forum's I've seen.
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Iblis
Ghost Cat




Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
HOWEVER, I think we should be sure to make sure that discussing of illegal activities be done in as negative, or neutral a manner as possible.


Oh, obviously that rule would need amending too. It would have to be more like "don't post about doing illegal activity that you did yourself." If there was to be no discussion of illegal activity at all then it would be against the rules to say "my house got robbed last night."

It would also be possible to leave the rule as is, but specifically state what does and doesn't constitute "encouraging" illegal activity.

I would actually support any of those options (making the rule more strict, more specific, or more lenient).
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The Wobbler




Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Cube
Dimensional Traveller




Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 294

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, if that's what this is all about I can understand that. Like I said it was inconsiderate, and I apologize again for it. Looking back, I think I posted that because it really WAS 6am in the morning and I hadn't slept for 24 hours. I dunno, I don't usually boast about crap. If anyone knows me, they know this. Except when it comes to FFXI. If you don't think I rock at that game, I'll see you in Ballista *cough*.

But I do find it unfortunate that I'm not able to discuss my thoughts on the actual movie itself either. I knew people hated spoilers, so I kept those out entirely. Hyping people up is fun. With Spirits Within being such a flop, I wanted to know everyone's expectations...

I dunno. I think discussion should be open in such cases... Just don't be an idiot about it :\
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The Wobbler




Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Gizmog1
Don't Lurk In The Bushes!




Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2257
Location: Lurking In The Bushes!

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cube's discussed this a bit in IRC, and I think his comments make it apparent that a warning will not suffice. I'm cutting to the chase here, as we discussed some already covered ground:

[03:07:11SenorGrande> Your journal has privacy settings, use it

[03:07:30Cubie> Well..
[03:07:35Cubie> Nobody would've read it Raspberry!

[03:07:42SenorGrande> So?
[03:07:45SenorGrande> That's no excuse

[03:07:52Cubie> I wanted to share my thoughts with the community.

[03:08:03SenorGrande> I want to share things with the community

[03:08:05Cubie> I didn't have anyone in particular I wanted to see it.

[03:08:06SenorGrande> But I would get banned if I ddi
[03:08:10SenorGrande> That's why I have Sigma Epsilon Chi
[03:08:21SenorGrande> You could've posted it in the Private Movies Usergroup
[03:08:40SenorGrande> A public journal entry is the wrong place for it, and the desire for an audience is no excuse at all.

[03:08:47Cubie> Oh, the Film forum?

[03:08:49SenorGrande> And I'd say by that comment, you haven't learned your lesson

[03:08:52Cubie> Nobody goes in that Raspberry!

[03:09:00SenorGrande> Do you mind if I post this to the thread?
[03:09:05SenorGrande> This is really good stuff.

[03:09:17Cubie> Eh?

[03:09:23SenorGrande> I'm going to post this to the thread

[03:09:30Cubie> Why No, no, no...

[03:09:49SenorGrande> Because, I think it will help affect the admins decision on what to do with you, and it's definitely germane to the situation
[03:09:57SenorGrande> As it would lead me to doubt a simple warning will suffice
[03:10:18SenorGrande> I'm mostly only asking because it's polite. Technically this is public, and I can post it anyway

[03:10:34Cubie> Oh, I won't be posting anything ever again since I see we have a bunch of people who aren't interested in having fun on the forums and would rather cause trouble.
[03:11:08Cubie> I just wanted to enjoy a nice conversation with people.
[03:11:17Cubie> But they only see the negative things.
[03:11:25Cubie> It's ALWAYS the negative things in the community.
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Inferior Minion
Metric Ruler



Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 741
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The terms are subject to the moderator's discretion, given the situation and the seriousness of the offense.

If you want extremely strict enforcement, PHC could have been warned for trolling in Linkmax's "Do you like ice cream?" thread, Giz could have been punished for his wedding/breakup/suicide, Leroy could be sited for excessive spamming with his daily post count. Look at some of the posts in Sparrowhawk's "South sound Speedway (First day at work)"

You're regular users, though. Squall, Cube, and myself aren't here to strictly distribute punishment. It's not fun for us, and it's not fun for you. The rules are in place in case things do get out of hand. I can lock Giz's announcements for being spam, but it's up to me if I feel he warrants a warning. Even though it related to the 2 previously locked threads, I didn't lock his "Warm greeting and a fond farewell" because it did announce his work on upcoming games. I only locked it when I felt it had gone long enough and was getting out of hand. My discretion.

Cube's post did not link to a download or encourage downloading in any way. What he did may have been illegal, but he didn't explicitly state it nor did he help others help others in doing what he did.

Given my interpretation of the terms I wrote, he did not violate them. Cube did not say "Go out and download this movie" he said "This movie is pretty damn cool."

At the end of the day here's what I see:
- He did not state he pirated the movie.

- He did not tell anyone to pirate the movie.

- He did not provide means for anyone to pirate the movie.
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The Wobbler




Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Gizmog1
Don't Lurk In The Bushes!




Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2257
Location: Lurking In The Bushes!

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He all but admitted he was illegally downloading this, and encouraging the people who spread these things around, and rip off from the companies. Secondly, he twice made comments about how he was at an advantage by downloading it illegally. Firstly by saying he was ahead of the Japanese release, secondly by saying how he was 2 months ahead of the North American release, and also by saying how much he enjoyed it, laughing, and skirting around the issue a bit, but making it plainly obvious he had indeed pirated it. He also made remarks about how "You can't warn an admin! =P" making it seem as though he feels he is somehow beyond reproach, and the rules don't apply to him; the rules clearly state they apply to all. Former actions on the part of PHC and myself are NOT on trial here, and are in no way germane to the current situation. If this is the final ruling on the situation, with Cubie getting away scot free, and the rules not being changed to be more clear, I am SORELY disappointed, as it would be only a further example of CP's one-hand-washes-the-other style of judication. Or is it all one big joke again, IM?

EDIT: He didn't state he pirated it? Bullshit!

"Look forward to the release in North America, which is in November sometime. I'm SO buying this, especially since I hear there's going to be a 2 disc set with extra goodies in it... *wink wink*"

He obviously admits to not yet having bought it, the Japanese release by his own admission is next week or next month, I forget which. Now, short of miraculous circumstances, such as finding it in his Walmart early, or being given a copy by ninjas, which would be worthy of note in his two replies in which he says "Illegal? Wait what? << >>" that only leaves piracy. Anyone with half a brain can deduce it. His post would be perfectly acceptable in any number of the private venues available, but he chose to post it publically, and he should pay a price for it.
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Inferior Minion
Metric Ruler



Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 741
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ToS was under question, I've explained myself, end of discussion. Cube's already been publicly warned and excessively humiliated by the community. If you really feel like continuing to bash this site's administration, it falls under the No Flaming/Trolling in the ToS and I'd be more than happy to start strict moderation of my rules.
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Gizmog1
Don't Lurk In The Bushes!




Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2257
Location: Lurking In The Bushes!

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How was the TOS under question? I don't fully understand what you mean by that, as the rules were pretty fairly established, and made public for everyone to read, and no one came forward with any confusion or anything to my recollection.

As for "Flaming" your administration, I apologize ever so humbly, my liege.
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Inferior Minion
Metric Ruler



Joined: 03 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really like pushing my buttons, don't you Giz? Today's sequence managed to get my foot shoved up your ass. Congratulations and we'll see you in a week.

I just know this is going to be analyzed and debated, so here's my justification in advance:

According to the ToS, the punishment starts at a warning, then probation.

My previous post was a warning, his response with the much enjoyed sarcasm is the second offense.

This thread, if read through from the beginning, was a call to clarify the No Illegal Activities clause. Giz is pushing for a very strict moderation of the ToS as a result, so as per my ToS, he gets a week of reflection.

I don't like banning users. I don't like warning users. I especially don't like being ridiculed for my hard work, considering the entire drive behind this thread was fueled over pirating and thereby using someone's hard work without justly compensating them.

The rules are subject to some interpretation given the individual situation. As Iblis pointed out, the rule changes based on what you consider constitutes "encouraging illegal activity." In Cube's instance, I saw no harm done by the posting of his opinion on a movie. The legality of his viewing does not come into play here. He did not link you to a download nor did anyone ask for one.

I have no problem discussing issues like ths. Cube appologized for interpretting the ToS differently than you did. No harm, no foul. I feel Iblis, PHC, Fen, and Cube handled the discussion in a very mature manner. If my moderation comes into question I'd gladly explain myself in another thread of this type. The ToS is not set in stone and I'm more than willing to change it given a well thought out suggestion.

By the third page, Iblis, Fen, PHC, and Cube had gotten to the heart of the matter: PHC had an issue with an admin using implied piracy to sound cool. Understandable, and given the 3 page thread of public humiliation and multiple apologies from Cube, I'd say continuing the discussion any further is overkill.

Seeing how I did write the ToS I felt obligated to reply and I've explained my reasoning on the topic.

Giz, howerver, attacked this issue with sever malice. He wanted Cube's adminship revoked. Attacking us doesn't accomplish anything. Squall, Cube, and I listen to reason. Cube understood PHC's position on the issue and appologized for what he did. His thread has been locked, he's been publicly humiliated. He's providing a service for free, lending his code for your benefit. OK, he could have worded his post differently, he understands that. The sarcasm is uncalled for.

PHC, seeing how this is your journal, I think this thread hs served it's purpose and could use a locking. If you'd like to continue debating the ToS, I'm more than happy to reply to PMs or e-mails to see if we can better word that line. Right now I think gets across what I was trying to say and leaves the moderators some discretion given a topic.
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner



Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ridiculous. What part of the TOS has Giz violated in this thread to merit banning? This isn't about the TOS, this is about you being sick of dealing with him.

I really don't care one way or the other about Cube, but to say that Giz deserves a ban, even if only a week-long one, is to completely write off the TOS.
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Shadowiii
It's been real.




Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 2460

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, no, no...
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The Wobbler




Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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