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Minnek
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Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeRoy_Leo wrote:
You're lucky I have more decency than you, or I'd get Minnek to hack all of your computers. But, no. I will tolerate this idiocy.


I am not a loaded gun to be pointing at people. :/ Unappreciated.
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Camdog




Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 606

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

8bit wrote:

It was Phil Gramm. Not Phil Spector.


Hah! Thanks. Freudian slip, perhaps? I wonder what that could mean...

Anyway, I just want to say to Leroy, please take a close look at the things you're saying before you convince yourself you're right about everything, and everyone else is completely wrong. You say you get your information from both sides of the aisle, then you say liberalism is a disease. Perhaps you read both, then reject all left-leaning material as bogus and accept all right-leaning material as truth? It is important to take a hard look at yourself, because it appears that all of the facts you mention are right-wing talking points, and are easily falsified.

For example, your statement that 45% of Americans don't pay taxes is absolutely untrue. http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/bookman/entries/2008/10/07/the_half_of_americans_pay_no_i.html. I got that from two seconds of googling "what percentage of americans pay taxes?" And, of course, conflating paying no income tax with no tax at all is just disingenuous. You can cut taxes without touching the income tax.

To take a slightly different angle, you said this:

LeRoy_Leo wrote:
So you don't think the people who give us our jobs and make our prices should get a tax cut too? Are you suggesting they aren't Human too? Are you jealous of them? I like 100% a lot better than 95%, even though 95% is unrealistic.


But I was originally responding to your point about Obama's plan, which was this:

LeRoy_Leo wrote:
Not to mention 45% of Americans don't even pay taxes, so there is no way he can cut taxes for 95% of Americans. The math doesn't add up, folks.


I other words, I was saying if you don't like Obama's plan for cutting taxes because it's unrealistic, you might feel McCain's plan is even worse, since it calls for even greater tax cuts. You responded as if I were making a different point, which suggests to me you are merely concerned with scoring points in this argument, rather than trying to learn.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, really. I just worry that you so easily write off so many people because of their beliefs, as if they all must be idiots or 'diseased' because they don't agree with you. Try to take a moment to read what's been written here, don't automatically dismiss what you hear from liberal sources, and try to leave the anger behind.

LeRoy_Leo wrote:
All I am saying is I am against bigger government, against redistribution of wealth, and against any other form of communism. Is that so wrong?


No, of course not, but I do think you take it to a misguided extreme.
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LeRoy_Leo
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. This is going to be my final say on this. I am sorry to have offended so many people, especially Minnek. Sorry, bud. I am going to pick my words very carefully this time. PLEASE take them into consideration. For the good of our souls, please don't take them wrongly.

My gut is usually right. It was right about John Kerry. It was right about Al Gore. I admit Bush wasn't the greatest president, but the occurrences of the past eight years (especially the past few years) have made it obvious that my gut was right. Kerry called our country a pariah and sided with enemies of our country. Al Gore is making millions from companies paying for "carbon credits", which is pure exploitation of natural phenomena and an associate of his even told a reporter that their intent is to bring down the economy. My gut feelings about those two were correct... And now the same ominous feeling is emerging with Obama. I am not trying to suggest that I am going to be right again, but one could bring themselves to that conclusion. Please forgive me if I am offending you. I am merely reporting.

Let me break my feeling down into simple terms for everyone who still thinks I am nuts.

1) Remember when the government raised minimum wages? Have you noticed that prices have inflated since then? I have. I work in a deli and the price of meat has gone up. My boss has made that no secret. The prices of groceries have also gone up. My gut told me they would. Obama's plan to tax the rich is giving me that same gut feeling, guys. I know for a fact that it will cause more inflation and maybe even layoffs. Business owners won't want to hire anyone new because they won't want to pay for them. I've seen this trend before, so it is undeniable. However, I sure hope I am wrong...

2) We cannot simply stop drilling for oil in the middle of our search for newer, better forms of energy and fuel. That would be like taking the bottle from the baby until they learn to walk, talk, and think of their own way to support themselves. Am I wrong? How can depriving ourselves of the blood of our nation's prosperity be a good thing? We need a new vein first, but we can't get that vein until we are independent of foreign fuel. Am I wrong? Is this not sound logic?

3) We all need to put this class hatred behind us. We can't keep thinking rich people deserve to suffer and then go and worship our favorite idols (singers, sports stars, etc). I am sorry to say this, but isn't that a double standard? Our idols don't give us jobs either. But that's not the main point I want to make here. The main point is simply this, why punish others who are more prosperous than us? Why take away their incentives and our own incentives? Have we forgotten the American dream? I agree, there may need to be some government regulation of business practices, because we are self serving creatures by nature. Corruption in business practices exists, I will not deny that. Taxing them is not the solution, however. That will only cause layoffs, price hikes, and a terrible economy and thus a terrible raise in the job market. Am I wrong? And if I am, please explain to me how. Can we afford to give any more incentives to people who haven't worked for them? Can we afford to "spread the wealth around" any more?

Please. This is my final plea for understanding. I have spoken these words with humility and articulateness. I am begging everyone to set aside their anger and think. I, myself, have given this a lot of thought.
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Onlyoneinall
Bug finder




Joined: 16 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bush fucked us up real, real good, with the Iraq war and the huge debt we now owe. That motherfucker should throw his own ass into the front lines, I can't believe you said 'I know Bush wasn't the greatest president', you should've said 'Bush is one of the worst US presidents ever'.

But from what I have heard, while Bush from the Republican side fucked us up pretty bad, the Democrat side didn't help as far as the housing crisis goes, by letting poor people get their own house starting at low payments and raising it up to the point where they just couldn't afford it, throwing us into big trouble.

The thing is, it doesn't matter which side you're on really, there will always be problems from both, although I feel Republican is a lot worse. Maybe if I was a rich white man I'd feel otherwise but hey, most of us are not.

I don't see how taxing the rich is going to inflate prices. The rich have a lot of fucking money, that's why they're rich. Increasing their tax a little so that they have to put off buying a Ferrari for a few days will not raise prices.

I can't really argue the minimum wage issue, but inflation is always happening regardless, isn't it? Raising the minimum wage just means more money to keep up with the inflation.

As for the oil issue, I think we need to start working on finding alternative energy sources and weaning ourselves off of foreign oil might give more incentive to actually make the effort to by pushing us out of our comfort zone.

Uh... I am not a fan of celebrities, or idols or any of that shit.

All I know is the rich have a lot of fucking money, and being able to distribute that more evenly would be a lot better. When I think of poor people who commit crimes and shit, I don't think 'those damn blacks and mexicans are a menace to society!'. No, I think, 'if they weren't so damn poor, I'm sure they wouldn't feel a need to commit such crimes.'

By the way what kind of background do you come from, Leroy? I know you're white, but am I to assume you come from a rich and wealthy family? You're apparently already married, I somehow doubt you to be anything less than upper middle class.
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Gizmog1
Don't Lurk In The Bushes!




Joined: 05 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I agree on the point of drilling. We need to do some drilling, where we'll get the most amount of oil, for the last amount of investment, and the lowest risk of environmental impact. But, it needs to be done with the understanding that it's just a part, and hopefully a small part, of solving our energy crisis, and hopefully the revenue from it can go towards cleaner, and longer term strategies. The democrats who're stonewalling ANY drilling at all are being incredibly naive.
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Uncommon
His legend will never die




Joined: 10 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeRoy_Leo wrote:
2) We cannot simply stop drilling for oil in the middle of our search for newer, better forms of energy and fuel. That would be like taking the bottle from the baby until they learn to walk, talk, and think of their own way to support themselves. Am I wrong? How can depriving ourselves of the blood of our nation's prosperity be a good thing? We need a new vein first, but we can't get that vein until we are independent of foreign fuel. Am I wrong? Is this not sound logic?

Actually, Obama's projections for independence from foreign oil are a lot more realistic than McCains'. It was McCain who said we should pretty much outright stop using it, while Obama said we'd be beyond the need for it in ten years by his plan.

And we'd actually need that new vein before we become independent of the old one. We couldn't become independent from it without something to take its place.
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Battleblaze
Warrior Thread Monk




Joined: 19 Dec 2003
Posts: 782
Location: IndY OHR

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well damn.

For some BattleBlaze brand hoensty

I think if we were a superleft country we'd go socialist. Which would be cool. But I don't think it would work.

I think if we were a superright country the churches (and the KKK) would win and we'd once again become and offically Christian country. Shortly after the crusades and the dark ages would resume. Keep in mind I am Christian and say this.

Out of the two. I hate neither. As rebulicans go Mccain isn't satan and is moderate on many issues. Sarah Palin on the other hand just isn't smart.

Out of the two. I simply like Obama and his plans more.

Some of my best friends are Rebulican (and rich) but we don't fight over it.

Leroy. I strongly disagree with what you've said. Strongly. But I apologize if for offfending you at all. As a person you're pretty fun. This place is about videogames after all, and when I first posted here back when I was..12 I think... You were one of the few people who weren't hostile.

It's all good.

(Gobama)
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LeRoy_Leo
Project manager
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Joined: 24 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you BattleBlaze. I just felt pretty outraged that someone would insult a person based on no grounds and then let others insult me while what I said was "rude".
I am glad we can agree to disagree. I guess all that is left to do is wait, watch, and remember what has been said.
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LongeBane




Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 313
Location: Tomorrow

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeRoy_Leo wrote:
Thank you BattleBlaze. I just felt pretty outraged that someone would insult a person based on no grounds and then let others insult me while what I said was "rude".
I am glad we can agree to disagree. I guess all that is left to do is wait, watch, and remember what has been said.


I'm not honoring the people who just trolled you without proving why.

But the first post that comes out of your mouth/keyboard, made some really outrageous claims and provides no sources for this "Research" you did. Which adds to the irony where you insult other people with "Please do some research before you go off aimlessly voting for someone."

Honestly though I don't think anyone meant you any harm. In fact they were only helping you, because they thought your post was actually saying I want as much cock as you guys can give me for my large mouth, I can handle it.
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LeRoy_Leo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAHA!
That's the best way I've ever heard it put.
Well, I guess I do need to provide evidence of my research.
A lot of the evidence, however, is right under all of our noses.
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Uncommon
His legend will never die




Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2506

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeRoy_Leo wrote:
A lot of the evidence, however, is right under all of our noses.

You say that, but most of it is spin or baseless conjecture.
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Onlyoneinall
Bug finder




Joined: 16 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeRoy_Leo wrote:
HAHA!
That's the best way I've ever heard it put.
Well, I guess I do need to provide evidence of my research.
A lot of the evidence, however, is right under all of our noses.


....Hey Leroy! You're an idiot!

What? Provide evidence for my statement? But it's right under all of our noses!

No, no, no...

Provide evidence.
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LeRoy_Leo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you went and double posted. tsk tsk.

I did exactly what everyone else in this discussion did. I provided what I have heard over the past few years. Not very many people linked to their sources. And yet I am told to shut up? Gentlemen, I believe I have all the proof I need to say that the Democratic party is no longer the party of fairness and conservatism that it used to be.
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"Seriously James, you keep rolling out the awesome like gingerbread men on a horror-movie assembly line. "
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Uncommon
His legend will never die




Joined: 10 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So first you're going to say you handled yourself more elegantly than the rest of them and now that you finally talk about the lack of evidence you're going with the "everybody was doing it!" defense? Dude, you ought to know better than that.

Plus, it's not technically true. Camdog linked to sources, and beyond that he and myself have been doing something pretty important to debate, we explained our positions. You can't just post a thing like it's fact without evidence, you can post something based on your feelings and beliefs and explain why you feel that way.

Don't use such objective language and maybe you won't get so many people getting so mad at what you say.
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LeRoy_Leo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did mention that some people referenced. I could reference too, but my sources wouldn't be considered credible, because people are still biased to wacko liberal sources.

It's just the way I talk. I always say "it's a fact". It usually effectively turns the debate over to me. However, using sources would only help. I can agree with you there.

It still stands that no one but me got a lecture today even though some of the responses I received were nothing short of vicious. I DEMAND that there be justice. Lecture everyone who was flaming me. NOW. It's not fair that only I get a lecture when I am clearly one of the most mature people here.
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