| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
|
 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: | | Are you saying that the base of the grass is too dark? |
Yes.
| Quote: | | If I can't see what's wrong with it, then I do need to scrap it and start again. That would be like attempting to paint a stranger's portrait while blind. |
What matters is that other people can see the difference. It's the same thing with writing an essay: You are going to miss errors proofreading that other people will catch.
The tileset is very salvageable. You just need to make some major corrections that are also simple corrections.
_________________
TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Artimus Bena
Admiral
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 637
Location: Dreamland.
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I hope you don't mind, I played with a patch of dirt. Simply moving down the shades of brown, I was able to to do this:
The four shades is a problem though. The dirt looks like it was plowed, and no one's ever stepped on it. Again, a smidgen too many details.
_________________
SACRE BLEU!
|||Compositions!
|||Eldardeen Soundtrack!
|||Red Mercury! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The difference is that if you proofread something as simple as a spelling error, I would be able to see that.
It's much harder for me to see why my tiles are working.
But now that I know what you're saying, I think there's a good solution to this.
_________________
Calehay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | The difference is that if you proofread something as simple as a spelling error, I would be able to see that. |
I must have forgotten that analogies must be perfect, 1 to 1 comparisons.
I might as well say that it's like someone else looking over your pixel tile drawing and finding errors that you don't see, because that would be a perfect 1 to 1 comparison.
| Quote: | | It's much harder for me to see why my tiles are working. |
You probably need to adjust your computer monitor then.
_________________
TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Newbie_Power wrote: | | Quote: | | The difference is that if you proofread something as simple as a spelling error, I would be able to see that. |
I must have forgotten that analogies must be perfect, 1 to 1 comparisons. |
If you want your analogy to stand up against argument, then it has to not have holes like that one. Not a perfect 1 to 1 ratio. Something more apt would be explaining to a musician the outcome of their musical phrasing as opposed to their intention, as it's less tangible than an error in writing. Or to keep it in writing, how a passage comes off than how it was intended.
But anyway, I thought this would be a good solution, but it doesn't seem to work too well:
This would be lightening the grass, which is a very unsavory solution, and the same problem people had with the tree:
This would be darkening the dirt:
As I've said before, I really don't know what looks good, so apparently I just have to ask people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | If you want your analogy to stand up against argument, then it has to not have holes like that one. Not a perfect 1 to 1 ratio. Something more apt would be explaining to a musician the outcome of their musical phrasing as opposed to their intention, as it's less tangible than an error in writing. Or to keep it in writing, how a passage comes off than how it was intended. |
Screw you. I may have said "proofreading", but that doesn't make my statement any less true just because I can't bother to nitpick about details like that when I would rather help you.
| Quote: | | But anyway, I thought this would be a good solution, but it doesn't seem to work too well: |
Uhh... That grass looks MUCH better.
The problem still lies in two things:
That lightest shade in the dirt. Seiken Densetsu 3's lightest shade is nowhere near as protruding as yours is.
And the edges. Your edges are far too thickly outlined. It looks like it's rolling up a hill instead of being shadowed by grass blades. You might be following the Seiken Densetsu screenshot TOO much, because those are higher-resolution tiles than what we are working with here, so you may need to tone down the outline to be 1-pixel thick, and don't outline it perfectly, just go by where shadows are going to be cast (which would also mean you may have to draw more grass blades extending out onto the dirt). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Anonymous wrote: | | Quote: | | If you want your analogy to stand up against argument, then it has to not have holes like that one. Not a perfect 1 to 1 ratio. Something more apt would be explaining to a musician the outcome of their musical phrasing as opposed to their intention, as it's less tangible than an error in writing. Or to keep it in writing, how a passage comes off than how it was intended. |
Screw you. I may have said "proofreading", but that doesn't make my statement any less true just because I can't bother to nitpick about details like that when I would rather help you. |
I'm not denying your help at all, it's just that the analogy wasn't as apt. I was also illustrating further the fact that I'm not very versed in this type of art because I wasn't sure if you were seeing that. If anything, it was me explaining where I was from, not an attack against you. If you took it that way, I'm sorry, as it wasn't my intention at all. The second part was just me responding to your defense. It's not something we need to discuss here, or really anywhere.
If I seem to be curt and rude over this, it's merely the fact that I've recently come to the realization that I've been doing this for 4 years, and I have made no improvements in any area. I suppose that the problem is that I very much enjoy it, but I would like the output to be rewarding, and, as we can see, it's not.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | But anyway, I thought this would be a good solution, but it doesn't seem to work too well: |
Uhh... That grass looks MUCH better.
The problem still lies in two things:
That lightest shade in the dirt. Seiken Densetsu 3's lightest shade is nowhere near as protruding as yours is.
And the edges. Your edges are far too thickly outlined. It looks like it's rolling up a hill instead of being shadowed by grass blades. You might be following the Seiken Densetsu screenshot TOO much, because those are higher-resolution tiles than what we are working with here, so you may need to tone down the outline to be 1-pixel thick, and don't outline it perfectly, just go by where shadows are going to be cast (which would also mean you may have to draw more grass blades extending out onto the dirt). |
This grass to me seems very flat, and this to me looks much more like it's a film over the dirt as opposed to grass. But, as I said before, I know nothing, so I'll take your suggestion.
_________________
Calehay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, think about the point of view of the player. He's looking from the sky down at the grass. If that were a real photograph, the grass would probably look pretty "flat" anyway. Drawing blobs of pixels to represent random grass patterns (like Tsugumo said: Tetris pieces, heh) works pretty well in a low resolution game. You could probably change the color to look less like a teal variant, but keep the low contrast intact PLEASE.
Still though. The dirt is way too defined. The edges are too steep, like I said before. You need to practically eliminate the edges completely and let the grass extend over the dirt itself, shadowing as necessary.
_________________
TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Artimus Bena
Admiral
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 637
Location: Dreamland.
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
The grass in that first screenshot looks great. All you have to do from there is keep making it hang over everything, and it'll look tall enough. It's also way easier on the eyes, and other green objects are more distinct and easier to see as well. If you wanted to add a little more detail, you could, but not too much more.
The wall texturing looks pretty good, I'd stick with that. (in the first screenshot I mean)
_________________
SACRE BLEU!
|||Compositions!
|||Eldardeen Soundtrack!
|||Red Mercury! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
I assume that I killed it.
_________________
Calehay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Artimus Bena
Admiral
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 637
Location: Dreamland.
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
There's just certain parts where blades look really long, but otherwise, looks pretty nice. Why not draw a little grass at the base of the wall and tree?
_________________
SACRE BLEU!
|||Compositions!
|||Eldardeen Soundtrack!
|||Red Mercury! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I've been doing this for 4 years, and I have made no improvements in any area. |
Calehay, no. These graphics at their worst are like 300 times better than Verdimea's. It is a huge improvement.
The set you made by lightening the grass is the best one I've seen so far. The original tiles you posted had really too much contrast. These, however, maybe not quite enough contrast.
It's good that you're trying to make large multi-tile trees, but their proportions are a bit off. Either the trunks are too big or the tops are too small. The leaves are also not done perfectly but this is a hard thing to do and I can't really do it myself, so I dunno how to help you there.
I notice that with the little cliffs above the water you drew one tile and then mirrored it to get the other. I know this makes things a lot easier, but since it mirrors the grass along with the cliff it gives you a big ugly line of symmetry between the two tiles (like the one just a bit to the right of the small tree). It just looks lazy. If you really don't want to redraw the cliff for every tile, I understand that, and you can make it less noticeable if you just don't mirror the grass. Just use transparent pasting and put the mirrored cliff on the unmirrored grass.
Also, as Bena suggested, making some blades of grass stick up over the walls and roots can look really cool if you do it well (it's harder than it sounds though).
_________________
Locked
OHR Piano |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If I were to stick with the original OHR, palette, which I think I do because I don't trust myself to make a usable palette, I think this is about how much I can contrast it without looking odd. I'll play around with it, but considering the limited range of the ramp, it might not work.
Here's a small update of how that's going:
I completely failed with the grass on the side of the house. I think the trees went better, but I still need to update the new/old trees.
I began a new tileset for the insides, but it's not going as I had hoped:
I don't know if the sides of the wall for the top are working. I think the new marble floor is a bit more interesting than the plain one, but I'm not sure if it actually works better or not. The rug seems to still be having grid problems, as well as the wall. The table and the bed post are very much works in progress.
As to if I've improved, I'm sure that the tiles look better than Verdimea's, but I haven't crossed the gap of knowing why what works or not. It seems to me that I'm still going to be coming here posting the same old maptiles over and over again because I really don't know what looks good or bad.
But, in retrospect, it seems that might be partially untrue. I do know the nature of eliminating the grid, a thought I had wondered about before, but didn't know how to accomplish. I may not be able to do it completely, but I have learned a lot of tricks of the trade, though not the craft. But graphics is only .0002 of the battle. I feel that I haven't progressed in other areas.
I think what might have sparked all of this suicidal teen LJ type writing is the fact that I've finally been finishing up Sword of Jade (which, actually, I'm stuck on the last(or, at least I hope) battle with Talvas, and I'm unsure as to if I'm actually doing damage or if he's just toying with my emotions. Knowing the rest of the game, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter, but I'd love to make sure before I spend another 20-40 minutes in a battle.) During my time with the game, I think I've really found that I don't agree with some to many of the choices in the game. And then, after thinking about it, it seems to me that I don't agree with some to many of the people in this community as to what makes a good RPG.
Don't get me wrong. I think Sword of Jade is a spectacular acheivement and a generally enjoyable time, but I think some aspects and parts of it left me with sort of mixed feelings. So I wonder if it's really a bad thing that I don't agree on certain aspects with other members of the community. I know that difference is good, and what makes a community a community, but I guess it seems to me that I like all of the wrong kind of things.
I don't like games (or stories, for that matter) with agendas, or games with the notion of impressing a "theme" upon you. I've found that I just like stories with interesting and captivating characters that go on a journey, be it physical or mental. And it really comes out in the choice of things I read, I suppose. I tend to cling to many YA novels as my favorites to read, even though I'm well past the recommended reading age. I tend to like "simple" stories, which sadly in a lot of America has come to mean things for children and teenagers, then I have complex ones that try to impart some sort of philosophical nonsense onto you.
Of course, I said earlier that I don't like games or stories with the notion of impressing a theme upon the player/reader, but it's always wonderful when you can get a theme across without interfering with the flow of the characters. One of the things I've found in Sword of Jade is that nearly every NPC on the street spouts out some sort of philisophical view on life. I don't mind this, but nearly everyone in the town does this? That's what bothers me. Where's the people who aren't like this; the TV viewers (or equivalent,) the movie buffs, the "dumb jocks," the just people? I don't mind intellectual people, but when everyone seems to be that way, it loses it's real life aspect.
And not only that these people seemed to all be well-read, but they all say things that seemed to just force their way into this theme that the creators were trying to create. It seems odd that everyone just happens to be in this same mindset. Even though the world may be turning upside down, there's still gonna be someone wondering about something else somewhere in the world. There's going to be someone wondering what's for dinner, the state of whatever government, problems with the house, etc. Of course, Sword of Jade destroyed the person who endlessly wanders about saying, "Welcome to our town!" but I don't know if the solution they created was as fitting as I would have liked. It definitely works, but I don't know if it's the best that could have been created.
Of course, gandering through the Sword of Jade Bookclub discussion revealed that nearly everyone who contributed disagrees with me immensely. This isn't the first time. I personally think that FF6 has a very bad script (at least in English, anyway. Particularly in the parts where the programmers obviously were too lazy to program when you had different characters in certain scenes so that the dialogue would actually fit the personality for the character.) and the entire game took a turn for the worse when you enter the World of Ruin. (Attempting to find party members that you've worked so hard to build up with no clues except very vague descriptions given by random people in towns isn't very fun to me.) But many people disagree, and hail it as the best Final Fantasy to exist to this date. I personally would take X or IX as a better game before I did VI.
And, in the OHR world, though I still suggest Rinku's guide for Reasonably Septaweekly (I think.) I've found that I highly disagree with many, many things in the article. I suppose that really was the start of my realization that I don't agree with many of the people here, because I previously took the article as gospel before. I guess this ridiculously long thing is practically saying that I feel that I've grown a lot from this community, but I've grown in a tangent that's far from the mainstream. I still think that, barring quite a few flaws, Final Fantasy VII and VIII make for an enjoyable playthrough, I still find that I enjoy random encounters when balanced well, I still think that characters speaking in pretentious tongue should be generally kept to a moderate to minimum, I still find that normal encounters shouldn't be extremely difficult, and much more.
And it's reflected in this game that I'm working on at this point. It comes through that things that I like about the design, script, etc., are things that many don't like here, and thus sparked my comment about it not being good enough to be released. So I guess, it reality, it's not so much that it won't be good enough to be released, but it won't be... I don't really know how to finish this sentence, but I'm sure you can find what I mean.
This was incredibly off topic, but, what the hell, it's my journal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Artimus Bena
Admiral
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 637
Location: Dreamland.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
The inside tiles are pretty nice. It's nearly impossible to always eliminate the grid, so I wouldn't fret too much about things like the walls. They look all right. There's a dark vertical line though, in the brown floor, that I would fix.
Your graphics are good enough, work on the rest of your game! (and go back to the graphics later)
About your tangent there:
That's why you get to make your game the way you want to. That is the beauty of it, no?
_________________
SACRE BLEU!
|||Compositions!
|||Eldardeen Soundtrack!
|||Red Mercury! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Artimus Bena
Admiral
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 637
Location: Dreamland.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
By the way, if you want to keep posting graphics here, it's not a problem.
Think positive, I'm sure you've learned important things in this journal already.
_________________
SACRE BLEU!
|||Compositions!
|||Eldardeen Soundtrack!
|||Red Mercury! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
