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Who here has seen Farscape in the late 90s?
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chronoboy
Into the past with a splash




Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 162
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Who here has seen Farscape in the late 90s? Reply with quote

If anybody here recalls Farscape or have a Netflix Watch Instantly account, you may recall the Pilot episode.

I recently saw the Pilot yesterday for the first time, and it really reminded me of the beginning of my game(to a degree).

If anyone here played Chronoboy Adventures, you will recall that the boy ends up in another world. In Farscape, that scientist ends up on the other side of the galaxy. Very similar outcomes.

In both situations, both the boy from my game and the scientist from Farscape are distraught and not sure what to do in that situation.

In most movies/TV shows where the protagonist finds himself in an unfamiliar world/surrounding they start off finding out more about where they are as they explore.

I built my game from this type of story arc, as I have watched many movies and TV shows staring a protagonist whom finds themselves in unfamiliar territory. Think the SNES game, Secret of Evermore, or perhaps the even more popular Chrono Trigger. When you as the player end up in these other worlds, do you know where to go right off the bat? Heck no, you needed to do some exploring to know that Leena is in the Castle.

Perhaps my game went through all this in the wrong manner and my presentation was incorrect. Although with enough exploring, the player will find the cave which triggers the main plot.

I also really disliked the lack of feedback on my game which the community offered. It was almost next to no feedback whatsoever. Because of this, I was not able to fix any bugs correctly, or change the plot accordingly. Sometimes I really wish every community in the world was like Linux's community, high spirited and incredibly helpful.

In the spirit of the Linux community, I plan on releasing Chronoboy Adventures into the GPL, a fully unpassworded RPG file, with plotscript source included in the ZIP file. I planned on releasing my game into the GPL after the contest from the get-go. This will more than likely be my last contribution to the OHR community.

This is my last contribution as the detail in my review was a complete miss, and appeared very bias. Not sure why the fuzzy description included "Boy shears sheep for money", which is hardly a plot point. Everybody starts somewhere, and this protagonist started by tending a farm. Also the part which says, I overused plotscripting for things already in the engine. This was miswritten. I re-made some routines in CUSTOM to make development easier for me. Why should I be forced to used CUSTOM when I have sufficient programming skills? I enjoy using CUSTOM as a resource management tool, and I really enjoy HamsterSpeak. I tried other RPG engines which are just programming, including a craptastic resource management tool, and it felt like a chore making a game. Not sure why this was put into my review of the game, when it does not effect the player in the end one bit.

In summary(in case you scrolled through all my bullshit):

Fuzzy Description should not include non-plot points.

Reviews should not be based on how the game was programmed! It doesn't effect the player, so why was it taken into account when reviewed? Gamespot/IGN only reviews the game from the player's point of view. Bugs are fine to list, as long as it effects gameplay or are annoying.

And with that, I retire from this Community, but not the engine itself. Any new releases I make will not be posted here, but will be elsewhere.

http://c0021588.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/chronoboy.zip
If you download this file too early, the password is ohrdevel.
This file is hosted on Rackspaces LimeLight Network, which is basically a cluster. I just uploaded the non-passworded version, and it can take up to 24 hours for network propagation.
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Moogle1
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, get a sense of humor. Did you even read Motrya's Fuzzy Description?
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Newbie_Power




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw a few episodes of Farscape on DVD at a friend's house. I can't remember any of the characters' names.
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TMC
On the Verge of Insanity




Joined: 05 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a pity to see you stop development and leave. I heard your game described as having potential, and I think so too based on what little I've seen. I haven't provided any feedback because I have yet to play any of the HotOHR games, except for the version of Chronoboy Adventures you sent me for engine bug hunting, and Apophenia Demo. I suppose this means it's too late to send bug reports -- and I'm one to write thorough reports.

You're not alone in getting discouraged from lack of feedback -- it's the biggest problem around here, which almost everyone suffers. Only the most successful games get a lot, because there aren't many people around, and you're not going to hear a thing from 90% of the people who play your game. Posting games elsewhere for more response is a good idea, but why not post it here as well? Either way, good luck in future endeavours. Ah, and thanks for releasing your game under the GPL, that could be interesting.

I agree that it's unfair to count how a game was created against it. But this is more a community of game developers than players, so I can't blame someone for noticing and commenting on it.
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Moogle1
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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's fair to count it against it if it stops it from being playable. I heard a lot of feedback on CBA that boiled down to "I ran into a bug that made it impossible to proceed." That is probably a very strong factor in your lack of feedback.
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TMC
On the Verge of Insanity




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's about counting bugs, not internals. But I don't think anyone was actually counting "overuse of scripting" against the game.
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chronoboy
Into the past with a splash




Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 162
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moogle1 wrote:
Man, get a sense of humor. Did you even read Motrya's Fuzzy Description?

Truthfully I never read the fuzzy description for Motrya. Reading the first part of the description sounded factual, so I did not think the last line would be a zinger. It is a funny description, I do agree. It was just unexpected to see it after a factual description.

TMC wrote:
I suppose this means it's too late to send bug reports

A bug report is never too late.

TMC wrote:
Ah, and thanks for releasing your game under the GPL, that could be interesting.

Yes, it would definitely. It would also make it easier for bug tracking, as people say this is a very buggy game.

Moogle1 wrote:
I ran into a bug that made it impossible to proceed.

I am most interesting in learning about this bug. I playtested it many times in the +2 release version. Perhaps either the +3 or nightly is causing a bug which I did not catch.

I also heard of a bug while someone was playing which crashed the entire engine as soon as they walked into the portal in the intro scene. I was unable to duplicate this(and I had to play over the intro many times to fine tune it). This user is the only user having this particular issue, so it might just be an issue with his installation or download. Corrupt RPG is all I can think of.
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Pepsi Ranger
Reality TV Host




Joined: 05 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Chronoboy,

Please be certain that I meant no harm in my fuzzy descriptions of each game. They weren't supposed to be reviews, but humorous audience consensus overviews of what most people experienced about each game. It was one way to jazz up the results chart so that it didn't come off as some bland list. Believe me, my reviews are far more detailed and productive. If you go back to the post I wrote in your dedicated Chronoboy Adventures thread, you'll see that I had much more to say there (and more respect to give you). The fuzzy descriptions should never be taken as feedback, only as a jumping off point to get a sense of what players experienced, commented on, joked about, complained about, etc. I know that there was a big to-do about the game being fully programmed (and that's great; I admire your dedication to your style). However, it seemed like some of the bugs (and I'm only reporting what I've read elsewhere, not necessarily what I've experienced) were scripting errors that essentially substituted built-in features, like getting transported to unintentional places, harps that didn't work, etc.

What I would strongly recommend: There's a new wave of livestreams happening in IRC (Esper) #slimesalad, where community members play other people's games. I know Hachi played through all the HotOHR games live. If that feed is still available, you may want to watch it (someone will have to link it to you). If it's not, then maybe you can talk someone into trying again. But, the players give you real time reaction to the elements of your game. If you want detailed feedback, give it a try. They may be nice about it, or they may not. It can be both liberating and frustrating to watch. But quitting the community won't really fix the issue.

Again, don't take the comments made in the results feature seriously. Read what people wrote in their minireviews in the Heart of the OHR contest thread (during the voting phase) instead. Join IRC and ask the others point blank what they like and what they didn't. That's where the feedback is these days.

Hope this helps.
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Rya.Reisender
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: Who here has seen Farscape in the late 90s? Reply with quote

chronoboy wrote:
Reviews should not be based on how the game was programmed! It doesn't effect the player, so why was it taken into account when reviewed? Gamespot/IGN only reviews the game from the player's point of view.

I agree, this is a big problem of this community actually. This is, as the others already explained, caused because in this community there are no real gamers, there are only developers.
I criticized this some years ago already (the context there was that the developers here fail to look at games from a gamer's viewpoint). Many people here make their games to show off what they can do with the engine or to "express" something, but not many (none?) actually try to make a game that is enjoyable by outsiders (pure gamers) / can actually be sold.
You won't change this community, however. Instead just try to get your feedback from real gamers by publishing your game on the corresponding websites or look for gametesters directly.

Quote:
Bugs are fine to list, as long as it effects gameplay or are annoying.

Here I have to disagree with you, though. If a game is really buggy that is a problem. Even if the bugs don't affect gameplay at all. Let's say the game has many typos. It doesn't change the gameplay and might not even be too annoying, but it still makes the game look like being of bad quality. The big amount of small / minor bugs is one of the things that cause many pure gamers to look down on indie games.

Quote:
And with that, I retire from this Community, but not the engine itself. Any new releases I make will not be posted here, but will be elsewhere.

Why not just post about your game in various forums?

There is an indie game developer who makes RPGs, and he's active in quite many communities. His games were pretty successful. There has been an analysis about why his games sell more often than other similar games and one of the main reasons they found was, that he is popular in quite many gamer communities.

I'm just telling you this to show you that outside the OHRRPGCE there are obviously many other indie developers and they all have the same problems like lack of feedback, but they work hard on getting their games more known.

To quote you again on this:
Quote:
I also really disliked the lack of feedback on my game which the community offered. It was almost next to no feedback whatsoever. Because of this, I was not able to fix any bugs correctly, or change the plot accordingly.

Yes, it is a known problem in this community. I honestly know very well how you feel, because I had similar problems. First I didn't get any feedback and then when a review was made I had the feeling that it doesn't reflect the game properly at all and didn't even feel like the person who wrote it actually played it more than 1 hour. Yup, same story.

But I guess this is really the wrong community to get feedback on your game, they will always analyze the game from an OHRRPGCE viewpoint and not from a gamer viewpoint.

I didn't play your game either (otherwise I'd have given feedback). For me it usually takes very long until I actually play an OHRRPGCE game. This is because I often tried OHRRPGCE games and was eventually disappointed. Only very few are really good and were worth playing in the end. Obviously I have to put some sort of "filter" to decide which games to play, for me those are basically:
1. Game has to be finished.
2. Screenshots must be available and look like I could like the game.
3. Playing time should be at least 5 hours (for RPGs only).
Afaik your game was just a demo, that's why I didn't try it out.

Regarding the issue with not being able to fix bugs when people don't give feedback: Don't rely on communities to do this automatically! Go DIRECTLY to a person and ask if he/she wants to test your game. Post on forums (preferably bigger ones) that you are looking for TESTERS for your game (before releasing it!). It's better to have testers in your team than trying to expect the game to be tested by a community. If you make a release and people download it, they are playing it for fun, not for testing and giving feedback. But if you are looking directly for testers, their viewpoint when playing the game is quite different.
Believe me this is the way to go. Look what other indie RPG developers wrote in their post-mortems. Almost everyone 'learned' from their first big RPG project, that they lacked testers.
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The Wobbler




Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Who here has seen Farscape in the late 90s? Reply with quote

Rya.Reisender wrote:
This is, as the others already explained, caused because in this community there are no real gamers, there are only developers.
I criticized this some years ago already (the context there was that the developers here fail to look at games from a gamer's viewpoint). Many people here make their games to show off what they can do with the engine or to "express" something, but not many (none?) actually try to make a game that is enjoyable by outsiders (pure gamers) / can actually be sold.

This is such bullshit and you couldn't be more wrong. There are plenty of "real gamers" here, plenty of people don't make games to show off, and plenty of reviews that just look at how fun a game is, not how well it uses the engine. A fun game is a fun game regardless of how it's scripted, but if the scripting causes the game to not be playable people aren't going to play and review it.

And Chronoboy, you should be ashamed of blaming bugs in your game on "corrupt download/insalls."
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NeoSpade
Of course!




Joined: 23 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pepsi Ranger wrote:
What I would strongly recommend: There's a new wave of livestreams happening in IRC (Esper) #slimesalad, where community members play other people's games. I know Hachi played through all the HotOHR games live. If that feed is still available, you may want to watch it (someone will have to link it to you). If it's not, then maybe you can talk someone into trying again. But, the players give you real time reaction to the elements of your game. If you want detailed feedback, give it a try. They may be nice about it, or they may not. It can be both liberating and frustrating to watch. But quitting the community won't really fix the issue.


Pepsi Ranger wrote:
Join IRC and ask the others point blank what they like and what they didn't. That's where the feedback is these days.


I feel that this is an excellent point, with the IRC you're talking to other Developers there and then, while it's true that we are Developers and therefor look at things from the creators perspective, we are also mainly; if not all people who enjoy RPGs (otherwise we'd all be like *vegetarian cooks who prepare meat) and gaming in general.

Before giving up on the community give #slimesalad a shot: You get instant feedback, hell ask people to try it out while they're there(I haven't tried it yet but will when I have a gap in my schedule/if you catch me on IRC). As an extra plus both TMC and James come on from time to time, so you get the occasional chance to talk to the Devs.

*Bad example due to me doing this when we have guests.

EDIT: Surlaw put the real gamers bit better than I did.
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Bob the Hamster
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: Who here has seen Farscape in the late 90s? Reply with quote

Surlaw wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:
And Chronoboy, you should be ashamed of blaming bugs in your game on "corrupt download/insalls."


"corrupt" downloads just can't happen. The CRC checking on zip archives prevents it.

However, Chronoboy, it is okay with me if you blame bugs on engine bugs. I know you have already been helpful in identifying a few engine bugs.

If anybody has a bug when playing Chronoboy's game on the latest nightly builds, it could indeed be an engine bug, and I would like to hear all the details.

Also, I remember enjoying the first two seasons of Farscape. I didn't follow the rest of the series after that.
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chronoboy
Into the past with a splash




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Who here has seen Farscape in the late 90s? Reply with quote

Surlaw wrote:
And Chronoboy, you should be ashamed of blaming bugs in your game on "corrupt download/insalls."

Well, I'd rather blame it on a corrupt download/install rather than their PC. The point being, this was the only person who reported such an issue. I have been trying to reduplicate the issue with debugging enabled, and nothing. It also seems to crash all of GAME.EXE, I'm quiet sure I don't have access to pointers or malloc functions in HamsterSpeak to corrupt GAME.EXE's memory space. This particular issue cannot be related to a scripting bug. If it is, then it's definitely a bug in the engine that requires fixing.

A buffer overflow for example could compromise a computer if performed correctly. Hence how the Wii has the Homebrew channel. A buffer overflow in a Twilight Princess save file copied to the Wii can allow unsigned software to be installed. The hacked file just gives Epona a name longer than is allowed in the game engine. Do you blame this issue on the scripting in Twilight Princess, or the game engine having a faulty memory protection bug? Fortunately, this issue was reproducible on all Wiis, thus it was not related to a scratched disc of a single users' game disc.

FYI. Nintendo has since patched this bug with a Wii system update that checks for corrupt Twilight Princess save files when a save file is imported.
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msw188




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to voice a couple agreements and hopefully clarify something. First of all, I agree that the best way to get immediate feedback is to talk to people directly, even if I don't go online often enough to do so myself.

(However, I AM interested in seeing this feed of Hachi playing my game live. I didn't know anything about this. Do I need a chat program to watch this? Does anyone know if it's still available?)

I also agree that posting in lots of different places is much better than simply posting on the OHR forums. And for that matter, it does seem a bit silly to leave entirely. Posting as many places as possible is certainly a better idea than posting in one place, giving up on it, and then going and posting in another.

I want to try to give my two cents on the Rya post. I think Rya makes mistakes and pisses people like Surlaw off by using generalizing words like "always" and "none". However, it is a fact that people in this community use the OHR engine themselves. This is not a bad thing! They'll KNOW you can't support higher resolutions, for example. They'll KNOW that you can't control stereo effects in real time very easily, etc.

SOME people will SOMETIMES allow this knowledge to cloud their judgement of the game. But not everyone. I've tried my best not to do so in the reviews I have written (although if I had a suggestion for improvement that uses my knowledge of the engine, why should I not give it?). In fact, in my time reading the Hamsterspeak mag, I'm fairly certain that the majority of reviews (and a good portion of the features) focus on what makes or breaks the enjoyability of a game, not what engine techniques are used/misused. However, here's the rub.

'Pure gamers', upon finding something they dislike about a game, will mention it and stop there. 'Game developers', upon finding the same thing, will not only complain about the lack of fun, but might also criticize the implementation that led to the lack of fun. Again, this is not a bad thing unless you make it out to be! Take it as a suggestion on improvement. You'll notice that no one complains about implementation of something they enjoyed. People in this community find something they don't enjoy about the game first, THEN think they see how it was developed and complain about that. I think if you look at your review with that mindset, you'll find that it's not too terribly biased at all, although you may still find it frustratingly incomplete.

Finally, I do want to let you know that I fully plan on playing your game and writing a reveiw on it, but this might take me months. A lot of the community here, myself included, are at least approaching their late 20s if not past them, and have plenty of other time commitments. I only managed one review in the first month of judging, and I'm not sure how much my pace will manage to pick up. But your game WILL get another review in this community.
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JSH357
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Who here has seen Farscape in the late 90s? Reply with quote

chronoboy wrote:
Surlaw wrote:
And Chronoboy, you should be ashamed of blaming bugs in your game on "corrupt download/insalls."

Well, I'd rather blame it on a corrupt download/install rather than their PC. The point being, this was the only person who reported such an issue. I have been trying to reduplicate the issue with debugging enabled, and nothing. It also seems to crash all of GAME.EXE, I'm quiet sure I don't have access to pointers or malloc functions in HamsterSpeak to corrupt GAME.EXE's memory space. This particular issue cannot be related to a scripting bug. If it is, then it's definitely a bug in the engine that requires fixing.

A buffer overflow for example could compromise a computer if performed correctly. Hence how the Wii has the Homebrew channel. A buffer overflow in a Twilight Princess save file copied to the Wii can allow unsigned software to be installed. The hacked file just gives Epona a name longer than is allowed in the game engine. Do you blame this issue on the scripting in Twilight Princess, or the game engine having a faulty memory protection bug? Fortunately, this issue was reproducible on all Wiis, thus it was not related to a scratched disc of a single users' game disc.

FYI. Nintendo has since patched this bug with a Wii system update that checks for corrupt Twilight Princess save files when a save file is imported.


First of all, I want to say that while I do make games, I am indeed a gamer first and foremost. I love RPGs and have been playing them since I was a young child. Don't think for a second that the fact I'm a developer somehow weighs in to the issues I had with this game.

I actually just tested the game again, and it does work in the latest nightly. It crashed at the harp every single time I tried to play it before.
Bugs DO significantly affect the gameplay experience if they are so prevalent that the player can't get away from them. There was a simple solution to this: You could have packaged the game with the WORKING game.exe file, like most of the other entries in the contest did. This is perfectly legal and encouraged by the OHR developers.

Even looking past that, if you're asking for honest feedback, there are things that simply put me off playing the game more regardless:
- The title is based on a forum user name that's based off a video game character. This is usually not a good sign. If you had called this game even something as stupid as "The Secret Portal" I might have been more interested to begin with.
- The credits, while amusing, kind of clash with the semi-serious tone of the beginning of the game.
- The cloud and meteor slices look extremely unnatural, and lack good sound effects to help them
- In fact, there's a general lack of sound that needs to be addressed should you update the game
- The walkabouts in the intro have odd proportions and/or lazy animations (like the cars), and after being transported to the second world all of the graphics appear to be from the Ultima games. I know you're probably not a graphical wizard (neither am I) but these things DO reflect poorly on the game

Personally I think this was the second-weakest entry in the contest, for most of the above reasons, so I'm not surprised by its placing. The issues I mentioned are pretty much objective problems with the game; if this had been a commercial release, I probably would have returned it.

I would be happy to provide any other feedback.
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