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Discussing "Heart of the OHR"
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Rya.Reisender
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:39 am    Post subject: Discussing "Heart of the OHR" Reply with quote

I didn't want to derail the contest thread, but I just read about Pepsi Ranger's contest (I usually ignore contest threads, but someone said it motivated him to make a game, so I decided to check it out) and his post really moved my heart, so I want to reply to it.

Quote:
It seems that as times change, interests start moving in new directions, and the things that first captured our hearts and attention about indie-RPG design had since faded into obscurity.

Toward the end of the ‘90s and the early part of this decade, RPGs were king, and were incidentally, the only thing the OHR was capable of making. And then, as the decade continued, RPGs became less common, less desired, and soon the rate of releases made on the engine went from a sprint to a crawl.

Then, in about 2006 or 2007, the limits of the OHR began to change, and new life formed. Sidescrollers were now not only possible, but easier to make. Puzzle games, menu-based games, and even street fighting games were beginning to surface in droves throughout the course of three years. And during this time the course of the OHR RPG began to fall. RPGs were released on occasion, but the presence of one became rare, and almost surprising. And even then, the likelihood of it being a joke game was high. No, the integrity of the epic vacation gave way to a cheap day-trip, and by 2009 the nature of the RPG had become nearly absent.

I personally never really stopped loving 2D RPGs. But I can completely agree that there has been this development in the OHR community itself. Nobody really tried to seriously make an RPG anymore but rather tried to show their newest idea "that could be done with plotscripting" and usually resulted in something very incomplete which only had the point to show what that person actually could do with the OHR.

If I think about what I liked about the OHRRPGCE back in the days it was that most RPGs created for it were strongly gameplay focused. There wasn't too much dialogue and they were simple and fast paced to play. This is exactly what I liked about RPGs and something that was hard to find in actual retail RPGs.

Even today I still yearn for a game that is "Like an one of those many good traditional OHRRPGCE RPGs except complete." It's a lot harder to find a game like this than you'd expect. Even in other RPG Maker communities.

I mean I can totally understand why nobody is ever finishing his game, since I have the same problem with not losing motivation (see below).

Quote:
The other day, Surlaw and I were discussing the disappointment of creating huge games, which translates to many, many hours of development time (read: three years or more for some games), that people refuse to play because it requires them to fight random battles (that aren’t titillating 100% of the time), or read text (of any length), or spend more than a few hours of game time in order to finish it. Authors who put the level of time and attention that goes into a quality game, just to have it go unplayed because of an unwillingness to read (for example), is highly disheartened, and certain OHR gems have gone unfinished because the author experiences What’s-the-Point? Syndrome.

Yes, this is exactly what I experienced. You put a lot of effort into a game and are really proud of the result and in the end only very few people play it and even those didn't finish it and except comments like "You should make your text boxes look better" there's not much feedback. And in the end you wonder "Why should I make the game even longer, if nobody even finished the demo?".
(okay this was not the only reason for me to not continue, others were that I for example was hoping for someone to join and help me with the graphics, because I really hate doing them even though it turned out I'm not so bad if I really try)

Planning big is generally a bad idea for the indie community. But an RPG doesn't need to be planned big by default. It's quite plausible to make an RPG with only 5 hours of playing time, which still has an interesting and deep story.
There are several people that just plan "too epic". "I will make the best and longest RPG you've ever seen, it will have this and that feature and it will be soo cool". This just won't work out.
Instead people should rather plan "What kind of story is rather short but still interesting and works fine for an RPG?"

By the way, some months ago I bought Breath of Death VII for XBox Live Arcade. It's an indie game that can be download for the cost of 80 MS points (=1€). It's a quite simple and traditional game with a few unique features for the leveling and battle system. It plays very well, takes around 10 hours to complete, has an ok story, very nice dungeon design and just works out really well. When I played this I literary thought "Man I wish someone would make a game like this with the default OHRRPGCE battle system" (I even talked with TMC about it back then). For me this game is the perfect example and what should be done with the OHRRPGCE.

Quote:
This, of course, has contributed to the huge decline of RPGs—and especially in the quality RPGs—in our opinion, and that should be shocking when one considers we’re a community focused on an RPG making engine.

Even James Paige once expressed a slight disappointment in the gradual reduction of games that actually use the default features to, you know, make an RPG.

That is what the OHRRPGCE was made for.

This also saddens me. I personally really love traditional RPGs and I'd rather replay Phantasy Star II for the 7th time (which I actually do currently) than playing any of the 'modern' 3D RPGs.
Also what annoys me a lot are minigames in RPGs. I hate them. And most things that are done with the OHR the past years where more or less "minigames without the RPG". This is only a personal preferece, I'm not saying that the creators of those aren't really talented, it's just not what I really want (or why I'm in a forum of an RPG maker community to begin with).

Quote:
It’s hard to say whether the modern RPG is dying or just in a slump, but we’d like to see this giant of yesteryear make at least one more stand in the community. So, I am proposing the “Heart of the OHR Contest,” which is a contest, quite simply, about making the best RPGs we can make with the engine that brought us here in the first place.

Actually if you ask me, the trend lately really goes to retro RPGs. I mean if I compare the "1 new RPG every day for Playstation 2 in Japan" to todays "I have to wait 1-3 months until the next RPG is released" it's quite clear that the 'modern' RPG genre is slowly dieing. I mean not even I enjoy them so much anymore that I can finish them.
I finished Breath of Death VII and was even sad when it was over, but I hardly finish any of my XBox360 retail RPGs (except Star Ocean which also gave me sadness when I finished it because it was simply so good and without annoying minigames).

But if you look at the handheld consoles, namely PSP and especially DS. Suddenly all the RPGs get released for them! And most are even in 2D. Yay. Even the new Dragon Quest is not released for any TV console but for a handheld.
(too bad I can't stand the small screen of handheld and the fact that there's no way to connect the DS to a TV screen via the Wii)

Either way, I think I'm not the only one who still wants old 2D retro RPGs. Alone from the feedback I read about Breath of Death VII. Everyone was like "Yay, exactly what I waited for, for years."

Quote:
-Game must have at least 30 minutes of playtime with a good chunk of that devoted to story (in other words, 30 minutes without level grinding).

You know, this rule is kind of strange. It gives me the impression that you think the "Heart of the OHR" is a game with lots of story and little grinding. But honestly, haven't OHR games always been lots of gameplay and little story? Many of the good ones had lots of grinding as well (FUABMX and Wingedmene to only name two).

It's more some modern RPGs that focus on mainly story, up to a point where it's only Cutscene -> Cutscene -> Battle -> Cutscene -> Save Point -> Cutscene -> Battle. Not really something I think OHRRPGCE games should focus on.

Okay, this is all that I wanted to say. :-)
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Moogle1
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Discussing "Heart of the OHR" Reply with quote

Rya.Reisender wrote:
Nobody really tried to seriously make an RPG anymore but rather tried to show their newest idea "that could be done with plotscripting" and usually resulted in something very incomplete which only had the point to show what that person actually could do with the OHR.

Can you back this up with actual examples? "Plotscripting tech demos" is kind of my stereotype, but the last two games I put out have been standard RPGs (three if you include Phantom Tactics). Several of the most acclaimed games of the past year or so have been pure RPGs (e.g. Village People, Okedoke, Puckamon, Batman & Robin).

As far as "very incomplete" goes, you'll have to say that to the face of such games as SLIMES!, DON'T EAT SOAP!, and Bob the Hamster in the Crypt of Baconthulhu.

I'm not sure where you've been or what you've been playing, but what you're saying simply isn't true.

Quote:
You know, this rule is kind of strange. It gives me the impression that you think the "Heart of the OHR" is a game with lots of story and little grinding.

That's really not the point of the rule. You can make the game a half hour of battles, just so long as you have an actual half hour of content rather than two different battle formations you need to grind against until you're able to beat the boss, game over.

To put it in perspective, Do You Want to be a Hero? is a game that is pretty much all about grinding (in a certain sense of the word, anyway) and has almost no story, but I'm still entering it in the contest.
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Rya.Reisender
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly I must admit that I haven't played the games you mentioned as counter-examples, so maybe there are some after all (Pepsi Ranger said in the post himself that there was no good RPG in 2009 except Okedoke). Are they complete though, or only small demos? If they are complete I'll check them out for sure.

And I think maybe incomplete is the wrong word. More like "more of a minigame than an actual game".

Did you actually continue with Phantom Tactics? Because that "Chapter 1 only" version was pretty much a tech demo (you said yourself that the real recruitment / unit system is introduced after the first chapter). And certainly it didn't use any of the OHRRPGCE default systems, neither for walking, nor for the battle system.

The other game I remember from you was that vampire puzzle game, certainly not a general RPG either (even though it uses a lot more of the OHRRPGCE core engine than Phantom Tactics).

Please note that I don't say those "tech demos" are bad. They might be actually good games (in fact I really enjoyed Phantom Tactics, but I hate the fact that it's still incomplete <- correct me if I'm wrong), yet they still don't really use the OHRRPGCE 'core engine'.


Also, I didn't intend to discuss the rule itself. In fact for a contest rule it's pretty plausible. It just sounded funny like: "Hey let's make a game that is like the old good OHRRPGCE games, it should have 30 minutes of story, grinding doesn't count!" :-)


I'm curious if any good games will be made for the contest, though I'm afraid most will be incomplete games again that aren't taken up after the contest anymore.
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Moogle1
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rya.Reisender wrote:
The other game I remember from you was that vampire puzzle game

I honestly have no idea what you're referring to here.

Actually, I forgot about Maze of the Red Mage when I said my two most recent games were RPGs. You may or may not consider that an RPG (it's what's considered a "coffee break roguelike"). It was a 48-hour contest entry, though, and not a full-effort release (although it's a 100% finished game).

Of the RPGs I listed, Village People is about 25% complete and is still being developed, Okedoke has several hours of gameplay and is in active development, Puckamon is about 50% finished (it's by the same author as Okedoke, though, and Okedoke is taking priority), and Batman & Robin is 100% complete. All four games have a significant amount of playtime and no fancy plotscripting.

Incidentally, the two games I was referring to are The two games I was referring to are Crystal Chasers (also a 100% complete RPG) and Do You Want to be a Hero?, which has about an hour of playtime currently and is getting an update for the contest. I recommend them both, but Crystal Chasers fits your description better.
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Calehay
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moogle1 wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:
The other game I remember from you was that vampire puzzle game

I honestly have no idea what you're referring to here.


I think he's talking about Curse of Vampire.
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Moogle1
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, right. That was well over a year ago, though (June 2008).
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Rya.Reisender
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There haven't been so many games announced here lately actually, and I don't check Slime Salad, so I might have missed quite a lot. People should at least announce their games here if they are really long and worth playing.

Yes, I read the "Playtesters needed" thread on Crystal Chasers, but from the screenshots it looked a lot more like a puzzle game than a real RPG (and I guess I already had some prejudices because it was made by Moogle1). I'll make sure to check those games out when I have some time.

What is the general way to find the 'good' games these days, though? Back in the old days like 5 years ago, I always just downloaded the games that had a rating of 80% or higher. These days I simply check out the announcements I get only those games that look promising on the screenshots, which is not very reliable as I found that the ones that have really good artistic abilities have even more motivational problems than anyone else.

It is just me or did the old OHRRPGCE games involve a lot more teamwork?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@RYA:
Hello.
Please, play Slimes! You'll like it. It's not a demo, or a mini game.
Play Tim-Tim "The Mighty Gnome" too.

I'm perhaps one of the biggest contributors to the non-rpg OHR games. ( Or at least I like to think I am.) I love rpg's and they are the reason I use the OHR. I simply find making the same kind of game, more than a couple times, boring. RPG's are great but I don't want to limit myself to only making RPG's and when I saw how well the OHR could handle making side scrollers and other types of games I figured I'd make some of those too. It's fun for me to make them and in the end that's more important then what people downloading my free games think.
Basically what I'm trying to get at is, don't brush off a game just because it's not an rpg. That's silly.

I like the heart of the OHR contest. I in fact like all the OHR contests. (I find it odd that you don't.) I plan to make an RPG for it that will hopefully appease the mass' lust for role playing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rya.Reisender wrote:
There haven't been so many games announced here lately actually, and I don't check Slime Salad, so I might have missed quite a lot. People should at least announce their games here if they are really long and worth playing.

[...]

What is the general way to find the 'good' games these days, though?


Here's your problem. Most of the games released on CP are released on Slime Salad, but the reverse is not true.

http://www.slimesalad.com/forum/gamelist.php?type=t&forum_id=4

Crystal Chasers is an RPG. It has puzzle elements that don't make it not an RPG.

Quote:
It is just me or did the old OHRRPGCE games involve a lot more teamwork?


Teamwork is less common than it used to be, but finished games are a lot more common. Make of that what you will.

[edit] I also find this a little confusing:

Quote:
I really enjoyed Phantom Tactics
Quote:
I guess I already had some prejudices because it was made by Moogle1

I guess you mean that you thought it wouldn't be an RPG because I made it? I know there's the stereotype, like I said before, but about half of the games I make are RPGs.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moogle1 wrote:

Here's your problem. Most of the games released on CP are released on Slime Salad, but the reverse is not true.


This is really true. Castleparadox's game list is kindofa pain to use compared to Slimesalad's, and I usually forget to upload to CP until weeks or even months after I upload to SS.


... which reminds me, I forgot to upload Seinfeld teaches Typing here :)
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Rya.Reisender
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Basically what I'm trying to get at is, don't brush off a game just because it's not an rpg. That's silly.

I don't think that's silly. Everyone has their own genres. There are people who only play sport games, there are people who only like platformers, there are people who only like arcade games.
Would you say it's silly that someone who hates racing games doesn't give every racing game a chance?

It's not like RPGs are the only genre I like but I can already tell by looking at a screenshot or description of a game if it's possible that I might like it or not.

Counter example is for example Missing. That's not an RPG but from the screenshot I could already tell that I'll like it and in the end I really liked it.

Quote:
I like the heart of the OHR contest. I in fact like all the OHR contests. (I find it odd that you don't.)

Because I'd rather have it that a group of people work on the same game for 1-2 years and then release a complete, fully polished, old-school 2D RPG that is as good as Final Fantasy VI, than a group of people working on different games in a short amount of time and releasing either unpolished, incomplete, bugged or just really small games that can't compete with Final Fantasy VI (this is only an example).

I know contests seem to be needed to motivate people to release anything at all, but that doesn't change the fact that it'd be cooler if they could stay motivated without that. Especially because after any contest most games are dropped and not actually completed, if they haven't been completed during the contest.

Quote:
Here's your problem. Most of the games released on CP are released on Slime Salad, but the reverse is not true.

Yeah I suppose I really should switch to Slime Salad. :-/

Quote:
Teamwork is less common than it used to be, but finished games are a lot more common. Make of that what you will.

I would need to play all those "finished" games to really rate them, but are those finished games good RPGs that have at least 5 hours of playing time?

Yes with teamwork there's always the problem that if one member disappears the game pretty much can't be continued. But the advantage of teamwork is that everyone can do what he's best at. The one who is a mastermind artist does the graphics, the good composer does the music, the one who has writing dialogues perfected writes them, the one who can do the battles best does everything related to those and the one who is best with dungeon design does that.

Not everyone is a mastermind like Pixel, who can work 5+ years on a game and then release with amazing graphics, music, gameplay and story.

I know that I'm pretty good with making interesting standard-OHR battles with balanced difficulty and interesting dungeon design that's not too simple, but I hate doing graphics, music and I'm awfully bad with writing dialogues in English (even though I can make up interesting story outlines). So if I could get a reliable artist, a reliable composer and a reliable dialogue writer, I could actually create something really good, which I couldn't do alone. The problem is mainly the "reliable". People are only reliable if they get money and you have some sort of contract usually. *sigh*

I really loved Mattgamerr, Royal and Radar who formed the perfect development team. And Valkayree, me, his cousin and that girl that could draw so well (I think she was called Magus?) were a pretty nice team as well.

Quote:
I guess you mean that you thought it wouldn't be an RPG because I made it? I know there's the stereotype, like I said before, but about half of the games I make are RPGs.

Yeah that's exactly what I meant. Too much stereotyping I guess.
Because what I observed related to you was:
- made a very short Moogle game, RPG, no story, incomplete
- made OHR tactics as tech demo that SRPGs are possible, but that game was horribly buggy and incomplete
[OHR break]
- Darkmoor Dungeon, which is pretty much a tech demo of what is possible with the standard OHR battle system without using plotscripting
- Vampire game, adventure puzzle game
- Phantom Tactics, SRPG, only a demo of the first chapter, made during contest, not continued afterwards

The fact that I enjoyed Phantom Tactics doesn't make it more of a standard OHRRPGCE RPG. I doesn't change the fact that your games (that I played) are either incomplete or tech demos or both. I never said that only standard OHRRPGCE RPGs can be good.

But if I got the wrong impression by playing exactly the wrong half of the games you made, I always let myself being convinced that I was wrong, that's why I said "Maybe it's just because of the prejudices I had".


@Newbie_Power
Hi to you too. You are by the way one of the persons that I put into the category "can draw amazing graphics but never really released some complete RPG".
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have your right to only play RPG's, and you also have your right to not play any of the games released on the OHR in the last 2 years.
I completely agree with these choices in every way, and I have made these exact choices in the past.
But after choosing to both ignore New games AND ignore non-Rpgs how can you then be so critical of the games you don't play? You know nothing about them.
This is like a race car driver saying, "RPG's are retarded, you all should be making cars for me to race."
Or, a gamer who hasn't played a game in 2 years saying, "You guys should make some new games."
The race car driver is in to other things, good for him. His opinion shouldn't ( and won't) affect what the RPG developers make.
The Gamer wants new games, but doesn't play new games when they come out, so he thinks nothing good has come out in years.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait. I don't get the argument. If a game (Crystal Chasers) looks like a puzzle game in screenshots, and there's been no evidence otherwise, Is it not safe to assume it is a puzzle game? If the only way for Rya to have known it was an RPG was to play it, but he didn't play it because it looked like a puzzle game, I don't see a problem. And the vast majority of OHR games are either incomplete, or too short to justify being a full, enjoyable game. And nobody posts anything here on CP anyways, so with all the context, Rya has the right to say "We need more RPGs". It's just one of the misunderstandings you should expect when having a community that's spread across two or more sites, and is generally inactive enough for It to be easily assumable that not much has changed.

Of course, purposely ignoring games from somebody that you've understood to make mostly a particular genre that you don't like is fine, too, because unless explicitly stated, what else would you expect?

And I do know many decent RPGs have been made for the OHR recently. Keyword is recently. The OHR's notorious for not having many good games at all, aside from only 1 or 2 decent titles every blue moon. And honestly, I think the only reason It's gotten better games recently is because the community's been weeded down to only the most devoted developers. Nobody really left to make such atrocities as SUPER JARROD RPG or whatever it's called.
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