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TMC On the Verge of Insanity
Joined: 05 Apr 2003 Posts: 3240 Location: Matakana
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Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Oh whoops, I misread tilemaps <-> tilesets all the time.
Placing multiple tiles at once and copy pasting is badly needed. We had a big discussion on this forum once and everyone disagreed about how it should be done. I want to do a revamp of the map editor sometime adding mouse support and stuff, but would want some agreement on multiple tile placement before touching that.
Quote: | Tile grouping would be a great substitute for now, but tile spriting (where that six-tile tree acts as a single unit) and precise placement (perhaps when nontile alignment is implemented?) would be better. |
Wow, I actually don't remember anyone ever requesting that before. It's a good suggestion missed for too long. In fact I think it should be the future method of mapping. But it may happen sooner than you think. Bagne pointed out that this feature is necessary before we can add large walkabout sprites, and that's been promised soon! Hasn't been discussed on the mailing list yet though.
Quote: | It seems like some features creep up like shiny objects and more important features like new save format gets pushed back another couple of years when they desperately need to get worked on, but don't (or do, but very, very slowly). |
Guilty as charged. Currently sidetracked by seeing how many dozens of minor bugs I can fix in HSpeak.exe
Wow, that one caught me off guard. Start with the map editor? :P _________________ "It is so great it is insanely great." |
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Bob the Hamster OHRRPGCE Developer
Joined: 22 Feb 2003 Posts: 2526 Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)
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Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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The Mad Cacti wrote: |
Wow, that one caught me off guard. Start with the map editor? :P |
Actually, mouse support for gameplay is what has me most excited.
There is no good reason why a player should not be able to play a non-scripted OHR game using only the mouse.
You know why mouse support has always been a second-class-citizen in the OHR? Because back in 1994 I owned a 486 DOS that didn't have a mouse at all! I was stuck in a mindset of thinking of a mouse as being an "optional" component, that I could now always trust to even be present.
Now with possible future target platforms including Android, iPhone and Wii homebrew, the mouse is the ubiq, and the keyboard is the device that can't be trusted to be present. |
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TMC On the Verge of Insanity
Joined: 05 Apr 2003 Posts: 3240 Location: Matakana
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Nepenthe
Joined: 27 Sep 2004 Posts: 132
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Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I had two ideas for the interface of Tile Mark/Clone
1. Rectangular selection. Pretty self-explanatory. Also pretty limited
2. Tile addition/subtraction. The user would hold a certain key, say "M" for instance, and then press space to select each tile to add to the mark. Another key could be held to select tiles to remove from the mark. This would allow for non-rectangular and non-adjacent marks.
Pepsi Ranger wrote: |
While I think a default tile grouping would be a nice addition, I think it would be incomplete without the ability to move the object around the tilemap on a pixel-by-pixel basis.
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It sounds like this would mean basically creating slices from maptiles and then placing them within custom. I hadn't considered that before but it would actually be pretty rad (Can I still say rad? I'm not really down with the lingo anymore), especially if we could start pinning other types of sprite slices to map layers without having to write scripts. |
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Bagne ALL YOUR NUDIBRANCH ARE BELONG TO GASTROPODA
Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 518 Location: Halifax
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Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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That frame-limit raising thing sounds awesome!
Would this mean that you can give 17 frames to one walkabout, 19 frames to another, and say ... 7 to a large enemy?
All the frames for an animation could be stored in one set, and not scattered throughout the <SIZE> ENEMY SPRITE list.
Has there been any talk of custom sized graphic sprites?
Does this go against the grain when it comes to efficient memory usage?
I've had some ideas which would benefit from really large sprites. (of course, I can always piece together a larger image from LARGE ENEMY SPRITEs, but that's a lot of work for an otherwise straight-forward task). _________________ Working on rain and cloud formation |
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TMC On the Verge of Insanity
Joined: 05 Apr 2003 Posts: 3240 Location: Matakana
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:59 am Post subject: |
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The answers are: all your wildest dreams.
Nepenthe wrote: | I had two ideas for the interface of Tile Mark/Clone |
Are these ideas presented to be mutually exclusive? I assume not. - both would be very good. But if you allow copying tiles arbitrarily large patterns like the island example, the distance might be more than the size of the screen, so to be sensible, you should zoom out the map so that you can see the whole "brush" at once. Lots of little things to work out.
I think the debate last time was mostly about whether tilesets should have multi-tile objects definable, or whether it should be implemented completely as a copy-paste tool with nothing new added to tilesets. _________________ "It is so great it is insanely great." |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006 Posts: 1762
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:11 am Post subject: |
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I think copy/paste would be easier and less reliant on the OHR interface.
I also think it is potentially faster. Instead of being limited to your definitions, you can copy groups of tiles as they grow larger to multiply the speed of your map building. _________________
TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Bagne ALL YOUR NUDIBRANCH ARE BELONG TO GASTROPODA
Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 518 Location: Halifax
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: |
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All this discussion of built in ways to attach slices to the map is delighting me to no end.
Quote: |
I think the debate last time was mostly about whether tilesets should have multi-tile objects definable, or whether it should be implemented completely as a copy-paste tool with nothing new added to tilesets. |
If these were mutually exclusive, I'd side with the multi-tile objects.
Tell me if I'm going overboard, but if these objects preserved their identity you could access them with scripts. Then if the objects (or maptiles of the object) had user-defined data, you could construct all kinds of zany things, with scripting ... particularly if slices could be attached to the objects within custom. You'd only need to attach one slice to each object if it could function as a parent to other slices.
If the user isn't interested in preserving the object's identity, maybe the tool could be put into "stamp" mode where you just paint on the tiles. _________________ Working on rain and cloud formation |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 2221
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: |
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JSH357
Joined: 02 Feb 2003 Posts: 1705
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: |
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It's still 60 |
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TMC On the Verge of Insanity
Joined: 05 Apr 2003 Posts: 3240 Location: Matakana
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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The limit on number of hero definitions does seem pretty silly and would probably be easy to remove. Also James recently cleaned up some stuff around the party size limit, and might be removing that limit as well? That one's much harder.
Newbie_Power wrote: | I think copy/paste would be easier and less reliant on the OHR interface. |
Good point. Whatever we do, we should have flexible copy/pasting anyway.
Bagne wrote: | Tell me if I'm going overboard, but if these objects preserved their identity you could access them with scripts. Then if the objects (or maptiles of the object) had user-defined data, you could construct all kinds of zany things, with scripting ... particularly if slices could be attached to the objects within custom. You'd only need to attach one slice to each object if it could function as a parent to other slices. |
Well, map objects will be slices, and probably nothing but slices, since slices are plenty flexible enough. If they are composed of multiple tiles, they'll probably be a new kind of slice, and we'd add a load map sprite (tileset, spritenum) command. I'm sketchy on the details. Maybe the slice editor will be callable within the map editor, and the map objects will be implemented as just another slice collection (wow, I hadn't though of that before. That will be super easy to do!) _________________ "It is so great it is insanely great." |
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Nepenthe
Joined: 27 Sep 2004 Posts: 132
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | ...you should zoom out the map so that you can see the whole "brush" at once. Lots of little things to work out. |
I don't think zooming is really necessary, and would probably be more trouble than it's worth (both for the developers to implement and for the users to...uh...use).
The way I envision it, when placing the clone, the upper-left most tile of the cloned area would be selected and the X/Y value of this tile would be displayed. (This tile would have to be extrapolated based on the clone's left and top-most edges for non-rectangular clones.) As long as users have the coordinates of this anchor tile, it should be easy to place the clone exactly where needed no matter how big and/or oddly shaped it is. The cloned tiles should probably blink while being placed (just like the current mark/clone in the graphics editor) so smaller clones could be placed relative to existing tiles. But I really don't think a bit of measuring is too much to ask for large ones. |
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TMC On the Verge of Insanity
Joined: 05 Apr 2003 Posts: 3240 Location: Matakana
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:42 am Post subject: |
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Heh, strangely I hadn't really considered how hard zoom would be to implement: it would be. But the map editor needs a proper minimap, and the clone could flash on there.
Displaying coordinates sounds good, but you didn't explain how being able to precisely set the top left point of the clone would let you line up the bottom or right edges. I think the best way to place large clones exactly as desired would be to let you move the camera and the clone independently. (Designing the control scheme will need thought.) Maybe that's what you intended. _________________ "It is so great it is insanely great." |
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Bagne ALL YOUR NUDIBRANCH ARE BELONG TO GASTROPODA
Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 518 Location: Halifax
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Well, map objects will be slices, and probably nothing but slices, since slices are plenty flexible enough. If they are composed of multiple tiles, they'll probably be a new kind of slice, and we'd add a load map sprite (tileset, spritenum) command. I'm sketchy on the details.
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Oh.
So, if I had a tree map sprite, the tree's wall mapping would exist independent of the map sprite?
Works for me. Anyways, my preference would be that there existed a means of writing a default wall-mapping (and extra data) upon placement of the sprite in custom. Kind of like a stamp tool I guess.
RE: Zooming
I noticed that OHR++ had a smooth zooming feature.
http://ohr++.castleparadox.com/wiki/ _________________ Working on rain and cloud formation |
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Nepenthe
Joined: 27 Sep 2004 Posts: 132
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Displaying coordinates sounds good, but you didn't explain how being able to precisely set the top left point of the clone would let you line up the bottom or right edges. |
That's where the measuring comes in. Since the mark would be user defined, the user will know exactly how wide/tall the clone is. If the clone is ten tiles wide, you'd know that the right edge is +10 tiles of the X coordinate.
Come to think of it, it'd probably be useful to display the dimensions (in tiles) of the marked area while marking.
I do agree about the mini-map. Once that's implemented, the clone should be displayed there. |
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