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Unescapable Battles
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Sparoku
Pyrithea Megadon.




Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 464
Location: Washington State

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TMC wrote:
(the way running works still need a lot of improving).

I agree with you. Especially where the graphics are concerned when your hero is weakened.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy




Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also:

1. Be able to specify how long it should take to run away (currently it is way too fast).

2. Be able to prevent the "ready bar" to go down when trying to run away (might want to do it so that it fills anyway).

3. Be able to define a chance for being able to run away. For example I want 30% of all random encounters to be impossible to run from even if no "unescapable" monster is present.

4. Make running away depend on condition (e.g. you can only run if you have more AGI than your enemies or you can't run away if a character is currently stunned).

5. Make running away for each character individually and if at least one escaped the game will continue even if the remaining party is wiped out (similar to e.g. FF6).
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TMC
On the Verge of Insanity




Joined: 05 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last year James cleaned up the running related code. However he stopped short of implementing any alternatives except for the alternative system used in turn based battles. But it should be a lot easier now.

There are lots of components to running though: that you have to hold down ESC, that the ready meters drain, that the time taken until you succeed is some weird formula, how the heroes animate, that they all run away at once, etc. That would be a lot of different things to create options for. Adding lots of options and then having to test 20 different combinations doesn't sound appealing; some (probably most) things are best left for battlescripting.

2 sounds reasonable. Having tag conditions for running would be good too; I think that could be a per-formation option. Of course we should have some way to specify difficulty of running away (number 1), but how? I'd like to see an alternative to the current hold-down-ESC approach, but in alternative systems the success or time to run would be calculated completely differently.


Rya.Reisender wrote:
5. Make running away for each character individually and if at least one escaped the game will continue even if the remaining party is wiped out (similar to e.g. FF6).


Really, can individual heroes run away in FF6? I can't remember. Allowing individual heroes to run away might be a difficult feature; I'm not really sure. But it would be cool, plus it makes a lot of sense if there's a Run command in each hero's battle menu.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Having tag conditions for running would be good too; I think that could be a per-formation option.

But if I for example want escaping impossible when a character is stunned, it is more of a general game system rather than per-formation.

A chance to run away could make more sense per-formation, though. Like you want formations with fast enemies harder to escape or something. Or you design your game so that it has quite hard encounter and easier encounter and you can't run from the easier ones but you can (and maybe are even supposed to) run from the harder ones.

Quote:
Of course we should have some way to specify difficulty of running away (number 1), but how?

Chance to run away "per tick".

Quote:
Really, can individual heroes run away in FF6? I can't remember. Allowing individual heroes to run away might be a difficult feature; I'm not really sure. But it would be cool, plus it makes a lot of sense if there's a Run command in each hero's battle menu.

Yeah it's not too important, I just wanted to through it in as idea.

And yes in FF6 running away basically works like a status change. There is the status change "gone" which makes you invisible, impossible to target and you never get a turn either. If you run away usually one character is very quick to escape, escaping with the last one takes quite long and me might even die before that (but game continues afterwards). I think it's also the first game were running away is harder, but you no longer lose Gil when running away.
There are also some monsters who can induce the "gone" state like that one Typhoon guy and his "Sneeze" skill. Or that secret boss who eats the heroes (though that's a special case because you get to a bonus dungeon if all characters get eaten).
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TMC
On the Verge of Insanity




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rya.Reisender wrote:
But if I for example want escaping impossible when a character is stunned, it is more of a general game system rather than per-formation.


Yeah, it wasn't meant to handle that... however if we added "is stunned" (and "is mute", etc) tags to heroes, then that would cover it. (Also hero "is alive" tags don't work in battle, but they ought to.)

Rya.Reisender wrote:
A chance to run away could make more sense per-formation, though. Like you want formations with fast enemies harder to escape or something. Or you design your game so that it has quite hard encounter and easier encounter and you can't run from the easier ones but you can (and maybe are even supposed to) run from the harder ones.


I considered that, it's quite nice at first because then we wouldn't need to define the way the run difficulty is calculate,d but the problem is that if you kill some of the enemies it doesn't become easier to run.

Quote:
Chance to run away "per tick".

I'm not sure whether an exponential distribution is the best possibility, though it is simple. The current (ATB) run system works differently; the chance to run increases (linearly) every tick. Also, the higher the speed stat of your heroes, the longer it takes to run!


Heh, never heard of that secret FF6 boss. Now that you explain it I do remember the heroes leaving at different times. But do you have to hold down a button to run? Can you stop trying to run after part of the party has escaped and continue the battle?
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I considered that, it's quite nice at first because then we wouldn't need to define the way the run difficulty is calculate,d but the problem is that if you kill some of the enemies it doesn't become easier to run.

As if anyone would first kill a monster and then try to run away.

And even if I wanted to enforce a tactic like this I can already do this today simply by making easier monsters have the unescapable tag. Then player can kill the easier monsters and run away. :-)
In fact I did exactly this in Gerania. The "slime" race makes escape impossible.

Quote:
I'm not sure whether an exponential distribution is the best possibility, though it is simple. The current (ATB) run system works differently; the chance to run increases (linearly) every tick. Also, the higher the speed stat of your heroes, the longer it takes to run!

A fixed percentage would be fine for me, but you might as well make it two option. Base chance per tick and chance increase per tick.

Also that last thing is stupid. >_>

Quote:
Heh, never heard of that secret FF6 boss. Now that you explain it I do remember the heroes leaving at different times. But do you have to hold down a button to run? Can you stop trying to run after part of the party has escaped and continue the battle?

You press L and R at the same time to escape in FF games.
You can stop running away and continue fighting with the remaining heroes if you want.
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TMC
On the Verge of Insanity




Joined: 05 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rya.Reisender wrote:
Quote:
I considered that, it's quite nice at first because then we wouldn't need to define the way the run difficulty is calculate,d but the problem is that if you kill some of the enemies it doesn't become easier to run.

As if anyone would first kill a monster and then try to run away.


Hmm, you're probably right most of the time, however it would prevent someone from doing basically what you said with the slimes (which is a cool idea), except having enemies that just make it much harder to escape rather than impossible.

Customising the shape of the time-to-run distribution seems like a really low priority. Better to just let you set the average time to run, and use that in a reasonable way.
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