Castle Paradox

[Ssalamanderr]

I've been playing Xenosaga quite a bit for the last week, and I started to wonder how it compares to the average OHR game. Now obviously, a game made on the OHR by one or two people will not be as good as one made by an entire company of proffesional game designers, but what do proffesional games have that OHR games do not?
I'm not sure if that's completely clear so I'll use some examples.
In the average OHR game, the town consists of a weapon shop, an Item shop, an Inn, some houses, and a bunch of villagers running around. What else do you need in a village? Well how about puzzles? In Xenosaga, there are tons of hidden items, levers and buttons to pull, miniquests, etc. There are also things like bakeries, mechanic shops, parks and the like. In the typical OHR town, there's nothing to do except shop and talk to NPCs, but what do the NPCs do? When you can find places in an RPG that would be there in real life it adds realism to the game.
Another feature I liked in Xenosaga was the decoder side quest. you can find locked red doors in many parts of the game. To open them, you need the correct decoder. Behind the doors are chests containing rare or unique items. There are very few OHR games with sidequests like this.

I'll stop now as I'm tired of typing.

What's my point? I'm not sure, but post any other differences between OHR and proffesional games that you find.
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Ukelele no good!

[Blazes Battles Inc.]

I tried having something like that, a realistic town with all sorts of things, but it all comes down to the fact that there's a big limitation on map sizes, and an even bigger one on the number of maps. The first town (that, coincidentally, I'm still working on because I've been slouching for the past... month?) does have a farm, barn, and school (with a library in it), and I may have put in more had I had the room. All together it takes up seven maps, so I have a feeling the other towns won't be quite so involved.

EDIT: And a gatehouse, too.
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Preserve OHR history! Do it for the children!

[Cube]

OHR games are missing planning, and well thought out design. Also, people who create OHR games just don't think of stuff like restureants, parks, and the like. One reason is that people are lazy. Another is that people are just too inexperienced, or are too excited about the game itself that they don't think about the side stuff (I myself fall into the second catagory). There's a world of difference between a professional game and a OHR game.

But there's two things in particular that I have a big gripe about. The first is story. I don't know why, but people seem to like the "hero lives peacefully in a village, and then something horrible happens like his village is burned". Of course, some sort of evil empire is the suprime entity in the world, and the hero must join either a rebel faction or his counties military and put a stop to it all. Just then some evil force of some sort comes from somewhere and looks like the reaper because hey, why not? The heroes then put a stop to him and it's the end.

So many OHR games are like that, it's bothersome. After my 10th game of the same thing in OHR, I kinda stopped downloading them.

The other is gameplay. Are you people content with ATB and spells that are gained through level ups, or items? Why doesn't anyone EVER try to make some unique level up systems, or magic systems? I'd kill to see someone make something new. When someone plays my games and compliment me on the systems, I just think "You're lucky. You actually got to experience something new and unexpected". I have fun playing my own games and all, but because I made it I'll never enjoy it as much as someone else.

So yeah, by biggest gripes are story and gameplay. That's what OHR games are missing.

[Blazes Battles Inc.]

[Squall]

Dang...after reading this thread I have to rewrite the story for my game...
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You got film in my video game!
You got video game in my film!

[Aethereal]

Heh...my story has the "kid is living in a village" thing and, eventually, the "village is destroyed" (although that takes place long after the main purpose of the quest is revealed). However, no evil empire and no rebel faction here. In fact, although by the end of the game you end up destroying an ultimate evil, the final goal is not that until 3/4 of the way through the game...

Also, I did create a unique way of powering your magic, rather than learning it...you should know what this is if you read my posts though.

My main problem is indeed story and gameplay, and sometimes general stupidity of games. I'm not going to go into detail, it might get ugly and IM and CN would have to stick a giant black bar over this entire post.
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[Setu_Firestorm]

Actually, I'm hoping to make .hack//OHR with differences. I'm figuring out how to plotscript some of the PS2 game's systems (keywords and such), but I'm adding a "small-battlefield" system, where for each battle you'll be taken to a small field where enemy NPCs walk around that you can fight (even though the indivdual fights are boring OHR crap, `cuz I'm not good enough for anything complicated). Actually, Sir Phoenix did a little something interesting in the Memphis Project. He had it where you don't build levels, but your equipment was designated to build individual stats (HP packs, body armor, scopes for accuracy).
Anyway, I've noticed the exact same thing, Cube. I'll admit, I've fallen into categories like being too excited to plan out and too lazy to think up gameply stuff, but I have downloaded some OHR games that were worthwhile (in my opinion).
All OHR game authors need to do, again in my opinion, is to use whatever game they make as a foundation, and then with each project following, they need to build on where the last game lacked.
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[Pepsi Ranger]

Yeah, I agree that towns and villages in most OHR games are too towny and villagy. That's why I populate my towns extensively with realistic places (like video rental stores and radio repair shops for example). It's also the reason why the towns and cities generally take up more than one map. I don't do straightforward puzzles simply because I don't see a point to them. I like to easter egg my special items instead (as incentive for the player to explore and pester the citizens). I also try to variate dialogue from time to time so that the player doesn't get bored with "listening" to the same NPC say the same thing over and over (key word being "try"). I'm not very revolutionary with gameplay, but I do try to throw in many bonuses to make the tedious gameplay worth enduring.

Anyway, that's my three cents.
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Progress Report:

The Adventures of Powerstick Man: Extended Edition

Currently Updating: General sweep of the game world and dialogue boxes. Adding extended maps.

Tightfloss Maiden

Currently Updating: Chapter 2

[Bob360]

Yes, I too have thought about this big delima... All you have to do is play and plan for long periods of time... My game has towns that dont serve a purpose!!! It has mini games and barns and farms and people who better you in no real purpose... Another big thing to do in OHR RPGs is to make things BIGGER!!! Make caves that take 30 or 40 minuets to beat and such...

[Shadowiii]

What is missing in the OHR?

Easy: character development.

The OHR villiage thing isn't really a serious issue. Its a thing someone might want to alter, but in all honesty homely villiages are everywhere in professional games. Most of the Final Fantasies on the SNES had little cruddy villiages that consisted of houses and stores, and they still are great games. Though the extensive depth and realism makes a game much better (and funner to play in a sense), it isn't what th eOHR is missing.

What the OHR games don't ever have is character development. All right, I'll give you some things. Many games have moderate character development. You can't PLAY a game without haveing the main character have a personallity. What I mean to say is that characters rarely have personalities. Here are some "examples." The first is an "extract" from FF7, while the other is the scene "redone" on the OHR. Focus on Barrett.

Cloud: ...how'd you lose that arm?

Barret: Shut 'teh hell up! Thats not somting you ask someone! A guy's past is his own problem!

OHR:

Jeffery: ...how'd you lose that arm?

Barret:
A. In a tragic accident that happened with...
B. I'm not telling.

Obviously, this is ment to take place before the background is found out. As you can see with my FF7 version (which isn't a wonderful game, but I like Barret, so...) Barret is a CHARACTER. He's black. He has an accent. He swears. He's trying to be tough, but he's covering it up by trying to change ths focus from his arm to his past, where the problem really lies.

The OHR version is either
A. I'm telling all. Listen up.
B. I'm not telling. Whoo.

Obviously, the Barret from FF7 is more fun to listen to and you'll get more attached to him then the Barret from the OHR. In all honesty, the personality of the OHR barret is similar to Jeffery; he doesn't have one.

Now some games have good Character Development. &And for example. Though you don't learn much about her, by the end you feel like you know the character and you want to learn more. Her manor of speaking and her actions tell her. The game would have been slightly less enjoyable if instead of Ampersand saying "...ok." She had said. "Fine by me."

Another great game is Powerstick Man. Although in this game you also don't find out much about his past, the dialouge is humerous as well as interguiging. You can really understand Powerstick Man.

That is my opinion what is missing. OHR games can have good stories (Walthros) and good graphics (FUBMX). But they don't tend to have character development. The only OHR game I've seen that has that is FUMBX, and Wandering Hamster.

How can it be fixed? Well, first I don't think OHRers are writers. Well thats not true; many are. But those who ARENT don't think enough about their characters. "I have a main character! Make him look cool and anime!"

NO.

Plan you character, please. For me.

Thats it.
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But enough talk, have at you!

[Rolling Stone]

The best OHR games are more perfect than the best commercial games. They're also more personal, closer to being a single vision of art.

I think that they're more perfect, because when the smarter OHRers make a game, they cut out the fat, they take the bread off the sandwich. You won't waste your time on something half assed in an OHR game because the author refused to make something half assed. With even my favorite commercial games, there's something there that has no heart, that's only there because someone was paid to put it there.

Powerstick Man was perfect as what it was. Everything there was what it needed to be. The areas needed to be so gigantic (Even if it meant tedious) to get across how... gigantic, they were. FUABMXv4 was always on the ball developing character and plot. It didn't slow you down in the middle of saving the world to do some shit you didn't care about one way or another. It was as big as it needed to be. In commercial RPGs you're nearly guaranteed to do a dozen quests which accomplish precisely nothing before doing one that matters any which way to anyone. In And& you have no task to accomplish but the most important one, everything in the way is just a stepping stone. In Wild Arms 2 everything in the way is just there for padding. I quit playing halfway through because I was on the second disc and there had been no storyline introduced yet. I knew that the hero could turn into a monster, and I knew why, but I didn't care. That plot piece had come and gone, and it obviously wasn't the story because the game lost interest in it almost as soon as it started.

In Metal Gear Solid 2, why did the story need to be so damn murky and dark and confusing? I still don't know why the patriots went to so much trouble, or if it was the lalilulelo, or why they would let Ocelot stay their top spy when he was possessed by their enemy. MGS1 was near perfect though, the big surprise at the end came after the story was resolved and simply hinted at something bigger. In MGS2 the story had no intention of ever resolving itself and simply told us "Well you're gonna have to wait 4 years and get 50 bucks ready if you want to see how it all ends".

Though that's another problem with OHR games, FUABMX, Powerstick Man, Origin, Memoria, Monterey Penguin, we've been waiting years to see how those ends, and for more than a few great games, we'll never know. I think that out of common courtesy, the authors of unfinished games should post a resolution to the story, not an in depth narrative, just a summary, with the cancellation announcements.

So anyways, I say that the OHR authors are only missing the tools and experience of our older commercial brothers. Royal is missing neither, he's both a commercial and OHR game artist now. One thing is that we have to trick the OHR into doing a lot of things, most big time programmers just do it the way they want from the start. The only difference between us and them is that they use hammers and wrenches, where we only use wrenches. The difference between them and the best of us is that the best of us use wrenches as hammers.
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[Uncommon]

Regarding character development, I don't think it's something we're missing, I think it's something we need to get rid of. The problem with most OHR games can be summed up in three words: amnestic main characters.

Seriously, too many heroes know nothing of their past. It was fun in FF6 and FF7, but now, it's getting really old. This is one of the highest crimes of character development, as far as I care. Quite a pet peeve of mine. It's just not very original anymore. I do my best to break away from this in my characters.

About the only exception was Willy from Magnus XVII, but it wouldn't make sense for him to know his past, as he didn't really know anything. Willy was a special case, because of his psychological condition (that's right, psychological, not mental). His past was hidden to him, because his entire mend was hidden to him. He knew the basic things, like the names of his family, his birthday, his name (the important one that most games would omit); however, he knew nothing of why he was an idiot (as he didn't really know that he was an idiot), or anything of that sort...

Now that I'm done with that excuse, I'd like to point to some examples where I am breaking away rather well:

Jacques Lerosse, from Live By the Sword... (in production stage)--
He knows exactly who he is and how he got where he is. He understands all the mistakes he's made and how he made them. THe thing about him, is that no ones else knows anything about, except what they might have heard through rumors. When confronted with such a rumor, he could probably confirm or deny them, if he really wanted to.

Parson Thomas Lamar, from Knights of the Realm (in semi-production stage)--
He knows himself, most people know him. He does little hiding compared to his brother Jacob (Jacques from above). Only a few choice things are kept from others, like the reason he became a parson. Of course, the oracle, Morpheus, hides much from Thomas regarding the his mission, and why he was chosen for it (including what this has to do with the things the good parson prefers to hide). Thomas also understands the way the Lady Eris toys with him, mostly because she allows him to see through her.

Caleb Glade, from Where Gods and Mortals Dance (in planning stage)--
He knows who he is, but that's just about it. He doesn't understand what's going on with the world, or why he's involved in it (actually, I don't either; that's probably why this is still in planning stage...). Caleb would probably be very lost if he didn't have Thomas around to explain things to him. Caleb is probably in the same boat as most of us would be in his shoes (thus, giving it an air of realism).

So, you see? Heroes don't have to be amnestic. They don't have to be omniscient either. In the middle is just about right.

[Frickin' Genius]

[Rolling Stone]

Elvis: Big fat guy with a gun. Likes shooting things that are already dead. Treats situations with an uninterested cocky attitude.

Batman: Incompetent rich man, entirely out of his element.

Crocodile Dundee: Ultra violent, dirty mouthed, blood thirsty, murderous racist.

Sigmar: Idiotic drunken moose. Claims loyalty to no one yet builds a defense program one missile at a time all the same. Punches people in the mouth if the won't support his nihilistic wars.

Elvis (IMDXmas): Has learned to live with the zombies on Xmas eve, and celebrates by beating Santa up, stealing his sleigh, and flying overhead waving at them as they perform a carefully choreographed dance routine in his honor.

(Anonymous) from Bastard Guns: A blank slate, which is natural considering that the player designs his personality in broad strokes through the use of choice boxes (This actually affects the story dramatically, rather than forcing you to choose what the game wants).

Vampire character from yet to be named project (Considering "Earth Dies Screaming"): Well he's androgynous in a David Bowie sort of way. He's a perverted little fella that acts more like Marilyn Monroe than Bela Lugosi. Not quite Anne Rice material, as I don't intend to write a homosexual pornographic game. He plays with his food like a cat with mice you might say, and doesn't take it seriously when he kills someone. It's just a game to him, just as it's just a game to you when you kill an RPG enemy. His immortality and high social standing make him irresponsible and arrogant. Also, he feeds people to his pet shark when he's done with them.

Though I don't think character development is what's missing. Are you gonna say that Chrono Cross has better defined characters than Powerstick Man? Or that Walthros is less original with it's characters than Legend of Dragoon (The entire cast is just a toned down version of the gang from FF7)? We have our share of archtypes (FUABMX), stereotypes (Autumn Dream) and straight off the wall bonkers characters (Neke, in fact, almost any contest game for that matter). The authors aren't where the problem is, nor is the software really. We just can't run the Playstation 2 or high end PC powerbooks on our computers. Also, we can only customize so much. While Moogle's games look like they weren't even made on the OHR, and a few others like MIA and Metamorphosis play dramatically different than the game the OHR was designed to make, we're stuck in a rigid RPG setup and only the most creative of us can find ways to work around that. Well I gotta finish my laundry so I'll shut up now.
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[Uncommon]