Castle Paradox

Rinku · Joined: 02 Feb 2003 Posts: 690

i think we're using the term 'innovative' differently, soule x. you seem to be equating innovation with 'a good idea', whereas i'm equating it with 'an idea so important it influenced the evolution of the genre'. also, i believe legend of the ghost lion was actualy made after ff4 (compare their japanese release dates; nes games didn't just suddenly stop when the snes was released, so there are nes rpgs that were influenced by ff4).

i agree with phc on leveling-up not being fun in most cases, but there is a crazy 'i'm watching the stats rising!' hypnotic fun, which i'm not going to argue is a good thing to find fun, but i do think that it can be fun for some people, especially if they've played enough rpgs and games to find joy in sheer stat-raising. these people tend to be insane completionists, getting every job maxed in ff5 or fft, or getting everyone to level 99, and i think and& can be fun for them. from what i hear of it (i haven't played it), ragnarock online uses a similar system to and&'s -- just leveling-up being the primary gameplay. it can be perhaps explained using the concepts (from behaviorism) of conditioned stimulus and response -- through time a person learns to associate stat-gaining with pleasure, and it becomes to them an end in itself, rather than a means to an end.
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Tower Defense Game

Me · Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject:

Moogle1 · Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject:

FF2j was probably the first RPG to have distinct characters in terms of story -- it had extra characters join the party, leave, die, etc. FF4 was probably the first to have distinct characters in terms of gameplay (and to actually use the characters distinctly in terms of story -- it's not like FF2 was a real work of literature or anything), meaning that the characters behaved differently in battle. FF1 did that much, of course, but FF4 integrated it with the story and made you care about the characters.
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Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

Soule X · Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 131 Location: Indiana

JSH357 · Joined: 02 Feb 2003 Posts: 1705

Only pod-people play MMORPGS. You have to be braindead to enjoy them.

(I know this for a fact, because I tried to play RO and FFXI and couldn't make it past a few hours with either) In other words, if you like MMORPGs, you are a bad person.

trolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltrolltroll

The Wobbler · Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 2221

Linkmax · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:45 pm Post subject:

Soule X · Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 131 Location: Indiana

You're arguing against the most fundamental aspect of the RPG. It's not an "uncreative crutch that's sucked creativity out of the genre for years", in fact that doesn't even make sense because a crutch is an aid, but I digress... it's the idea the entire genre was built on.

And there is a strategy in leveling up. You act like it's just holding a button down and walking away. You have to constantly moniter and maintain your HP's either by staying near town or carrying plenty of healing items. You have to know where the best XP spots are. You have to decide whether it's worth the risk to gain that little bit of extra XP to hunt a greater enemy. You have to eventually decide you think you're ready to tackle your next goal and take a risk. You never really know whether or not you're strong enough until you try, and when you succeed it's a great feeling. And it's the journey back that's exhilerating, knowing that all your hard work and leveling up strategies paid off.

The fact is, if leveling up was so boring and trite as you claim it is we wouldn't even be here. There would be no modern RPG, no OHR, no point in discussing this at all. A lot of people still appreciate the simple side of the RPG (and other genres, at that). Rescuing the princess from the cave of the green dragon in Dragon Warrior was more memorable to me than anything that happened in Final Fantasy VII. In fact, I remember way more major battles from DW than I do FFVII. And I hardly remember any leveling up in FFVII, yet remember leveling up like crazy in DW.

So in other words, yeah I like leveling up... or something...

The Wobbler · Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 2221

Moogle1 · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:53 pm Post subject:

Okay, first: Don't reference FF7 as an example of gameplay. FF7 sucked in terms of gameplay.

Second, we would definitely have modern RPGs without levelbusting. FF1 didn't even rely on it (the record is something like a lv16 party -- I've gotten to Chaos at lv17).

Third, the genre was not built on levelbusting. While DW is considered the first console RPG, FF1 is considered the first D&D-style console RPG. D&D is *definitely* not a levelbusting RP system. I enjoy RPGs and I don't enjoy levelbusting. This is proof enough that the genre isn't about levelbusting.

Fourth, levelling does not require strategy. You may need strategy to beat the first slime (doubtful!), but to beat the next fifty will not require anything you haven't already done. In any case, there's the Lete River/Banon levelbust cheat in FF6 that is exactly "holding down a button and walking away."

Finally, you need to play more American RPGs (KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, NWN). There is more to RPGs than becoming powerful enough to kill all of your random encounters in one hit.
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Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

Mike Caron · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject:

True, sometimes they throw puzzles in.
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I stand corrected. No rivers ran blood today. At least, none that were caused by us.

Final Fantasy Q
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Moogle1 · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:13 pm Post subject:

I am hurting on the inside. Crying

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Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

Mike Caron · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:28 pm Post subject:

Don't worry, I'm sekretly on your side
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I stand corrected. No rivers ran blood today. At least, none that were caused by us.

Final Fantasy Q
OHR Developer BLOG
Official OHRRPGCE Wiki and FAQ

Me · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:45 pm Post subject:

Soule X · Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 131 Location: Indiana

I said leveling up is fundamental to the RPG. I'm pretty much just going to skim over all the agrument against that. It's kind of like arguing that most RPG's don't have medieval settings or don't use magic. It's just not true. And I think every game used to counter all my arguments has a level up system so there we go...