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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Inferior Minion wrote: | | Rya.Reisender wrote: | Also I imagine the common situation is, someone comes here to find out which are the good games, maybe he checked already 2 years ago and is only interested in new good games. Also he doesn't like betas and only wants full releases. Now wouldn't it be awesome if there was a "Game Search" button you can click and then enter:
| Code: | Better than grade: B
Newer than: 2005
Full release: Yes |
Well I think that'd be a really awesome feature and shouldn't be too hard to implement either... the information is there after all. It's just a search form that is missing.
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Just wanted to mention that there is a Gamelist Search. The link just isn't in the most ideal place. You'll find it in the description of the very first forum on the Forum Index, Temp Game/Review Links. Here's the link:
http://www.castleparadox.com/gamelist.php?search=1
Also, given your previous comments, I think you'd enjoy Vikings of Midgard by Fenrir-Lunaris and Missing by Orchard-L/Friend. |
Oh thanks for the search link. This'll help a lot. =)
I actually played Viking of Midgard already. It was the first one I tried when I came back because it's listen as the default OHRRPGCE example game. I'd say it's average though. Stats could be slightly better and for some reason the special abilities that are listen on the Wiki don't work at all (for example Valkyrie doesn't fully recover her HP after each battle). And bosses are too easy somewhat. Also it has an average RPG story and is in general a lot like an average RPG. Maybe the perfect average RPG on OHR? Good as an example game indeed.
Missing in on my must play list. =) |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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JSH357
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 1705
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Also, regarding "THERE ARE TOO MANY JOKE/FUNNY GAMES ON THE LIST!":
Taking a quick headcount:
(12)Standard RPGs - Wandering Hamster, Sword of Jade, Walthros, Vikings of Midgard, Wingedmene, Spellshard, Powerstick Man, Crescent Dream, FFH, Halloween Quest, Lolsidothaldremobine, Time Flies
(1)OHR Movies - OHR House
(6)Untraditional RPGs - Thanksgiving Quest, Boundless Ocean, Darkmoor
Dungeon, Bliss, Purgatory, Bastard.GUNS
(3)Adventure Games - Missing, Pitch Black, OHR Date
(1)Platformers - Trailblazers
(6)Humor/Parody - Walthrus: ROC, I Made Dis, Arfenhouse 3, SCHBW, Walrus Chef, SCHMP, OMFGTR
Your argument holds no weight. |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Good gameplay isn't everything, though. A game just needs to be good in all aspects. It's not that I only care about the graphics. If the graphics are awesome but the gameplay sucks, the game isn't good. If the gameplay is awesome but the graphics suck, the game isn't good either. While music and story are aspects you can somewhat ignore (play your own music during play and jump over the story), graphics and gameplay are something you can't ignore. Although I think music and story are important as well, not to give the wrong impression.
And as I said it's not impossible with the OHRRPGCE to make a game that shines in every single aspects, since there are already some good examples out there. |
First of all, most people put effort into graphics to some degree. You are alienating those that put much effort into the graphics, but are still not as good as Fenrir-Lunaris or Friend. Second of all, if the graphics are so terrible that you want to AVGN on it, then the game is probably terrible anyway (see: Dummy the Happy Face). Next, gameplay is more important than graphics (for a lot of games) because graphics become outdated far more easily than gameplay does. OHRRPGCE, while finally becoming Windows, is still in the end pseudo-Mode X with custom palettes, but it's the gameplay of these games we're striving for that allow them to hold up with games of today.
For the sake of my argument, it's best to think of gameplay as to how to make the player enjoy the game, not necessarily mechanics alone.
| Quote: | | I actually played Viking of Midgard already. It was the first one I tried when I came back because it's listen as the default OHRRPGCE example game. I'd say it's average though. Stats could be slightly better and for some reason the special abilities that are listen on the Wiki don't work at all (for example Valkyrie doesn't fully recover her HP after each battle). And bosses are too easy somewhat. Also it has an average RPG story and is in general a lot like an average RPG. Maybe the perfect average RPG on OHR? Good as an example game indeed. |
Fenrir is still working on the game, so hopefully we convinced him to address the difficulty issues. And the story is fine. It doesn't need to be complex or deep. Still, Vikings was fun for what it was. Is that not enough until the difficulty is tweaked?
_________________
TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You have terrible taste because you're disregarding games you've never played and because you for some reason automatically dislike anything 3D. |
Telling someone they have terrible taste because they don't like 3d games is like telling someone they have no taste in painting because they like surrealism and despise realism. Some things just don't float some people's proverbial boats. Some people prefer the simplicity of 2d games over 3d and it's unfair to make value judgments about that.
| Quote: | Also, regarding "THERE ARE TOO MANY JOKE/FUNNY GAMES ON THE LIST!":
Taking a quick headcount:
(12)Standard RPGs - Wandering Hamster, Sword of Jade, Walthros, Vikings of Midgard, Wingedmene, Spellshard, Powerstick Man, Crescent Dream, FFH, Halloween Quest, Lolsidothaldremobine, Time Flies
(1)OHR Movies - OHR House
(6)Untraditional RPGs - Thanksgiving Quest, Boundless Ocean, Darkmoor
Dungeon, Bliss, Purgatory, Bastard.GUNS
(3)Adventure Games - Missing, Pitch Black, OHR Date
(1)Platformers - Trailblazers
(6)Humor/Parody - Walthrus: ROC, I Made Dis, Arfenhouse 3, SCHBW, Walrus Chef, SCHMP, OMFGTR
Your argument holds no weight. |
Well, to play devil's advocate here, we are talking about a game engine that is inherently designed to make standard rpgs, so to have 20% of the games showing up on a "best of" list be of the humor genre seems odd. And you seemed to have labelled your categories way too specifically because a lot of the games you put in other categories could fit into the humor/parody genre pretty easily. Not to mention that humor games make up a very small percentage of the total games list, so it isn't tough to make the argument that humor games are over represented on this list.
Then again, you could also say that humor games in general are of higher quality (or held to a lower standard) than traditional rpgs, in which case saying that their representation in the top 30 is reasonable.
That's not to say I necessarily agree with either of you. But both arguments are valid. In fact, I'm disappointed in the lack of traditional rpgs on the top 30 as well, but more in the sense that there are so few experienced developers who attempt to make quality traditional rpgs, especially since the battle system is getting so many new features lately, there's a lot more that you can do with it than you could when I first started using the engine. It's an untapped resource, I think.
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My name is...
The shake-zula, the mic rulah, the old schoola, you wanna trip? I'll bring it to yah... |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah. I made a mistake putting the Top 30 in my post. I edited it out, but it looks like Ryo found it anyway.
| Quote: | | Telling someone they have terrible taste because they don't like 3d games is like telling someone they have no taste in painting because they like surrealism and despise realism. Some things just don't float some people's proverbial boats. Some people prefer the simplicity of 2d games over 3d and it's unfair to make value judgments about that. |
I think Surlaw is telling Ryo that he has terrible taste not because he's being biased against 3D RPGs, but because he's actually looking for reasons to be biased against 2D OHR games. It's hypocritical to go against 3D graphics because you like old school 2D graphics, then turn around and say that our games need to look better. At least we draw our own graphics and have individuality compared to RPG engines that provide graphics for you.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Note from Castle Paradox Administration: | | This content has been removed by the user. Contact the original author and link them to this post if you wish to view the original content. Only the author can remove the tags hiding this content. |
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JSH357
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 1705
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| The Drizzle wrote: | | And you seemed to have labelled your categories way too specifically because a lot of the games you put in other categories could fit into the humor/parody genre pretty easily. Not to mention that humor games make up a very small percentage of the total games list, so it isn't tough to make the argument that humor games are over represented on this list. |
Sure, some traditional RPGs are humorous, some humorous games are traditional, etc, but only six of the games on the list are ENTIRELY based around humor or parodying OHR games.
18 out of the top 30 games are RPGs, standard or non-standard. That's a majority, and the fact that so many aren't is a testament to how flexible the engine is. |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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@JSH357
I never said there are too many parody games on the list. I said there are either those that are only focused on their gameplay or parody games there. Also I was referring to games which I have actually played as well.
Of the current Top 30, the only games I'd consider overall good (graphics, music, gameplay, story together) are:
Wandering Hamster, Boundless Ocean, Missing (not played yet, but it's by Orchard so it can only be good), Wingedmene, Spellshard and Lolsidothaldremobine.
The others all lack quality in at least one of those aspects.
@Newbie_Power
I'm sure that many people put a lot effort into their graphics although they still don't look really good (yet they are still better than anything I could do). I don't think you should value anything in a game like "gameplay" over any other aspect of the game. It's all about how they work together. And in the end the ONLY important thing is that playing the game is enjoyable. If a game has awesome game ideas like Sword of Jade, but is no fun playing, it doesn't help at all.
@Drizzle
I think the word "traditional" is wrong here. The opposite of joke game is not necessarily traditional. Actually traditional games sounds to me like they are no good at all, because they don't have any original gameplay. Vikings of Midgard is traditional, but games like Boundless Ocean still surpass those by far. |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Surlaw wrote: | | The Drizzle wrote: | | Telling someone they have terrible taste because they don't like 3d games is like telling someone they have no taste in painting because they like surrealism and despise realism. Some things just don't float some people's proverbial boats. Some people prefer the simplicity of 2d games over 3d and it's unfair to make value judgments about that. |
No, it's more akin to someone saying they don't like something because it was painted. 3D is not a style any more than "paint" or "clay" and can have a million different variations. Disregarding them all off hand is terrible, senseless, and closed-minded.
He's not talking about games, either, only graphics. And no, being 2D does not make a game simpler. There are some astoundingly complex 2D games and incredibly simple 3D games. |
To clear that up. I don't like 3D games because they for one have a movable camera and for some reason I always get lost in those games. And I also really dislike how you have to keep turning the camera to actually see stuff like switches and treasure boxes. This is far better in a 2D RPG. Even if some treasure chests are hidden behind a house I can just walk over all tiles and check everything. A second reason why I like 2D more is because 2D graphics can be far more beautiful than any 3D graphics. Graphics as beautiful as in FUABMXv3 wouldn't even be possible in 3D. |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Note from Castle Paradox Administration: | | This content has been removed by the user. Contact the original author and link them to this post if you wish to view the original content. Only the author can remove the tags hiding this content. |
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JSH357
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 1705
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | Of the current Top 30, the only games I'd consider overall good (graphics, music, gameplay, story together) are:
Wandering Hamster, Boundless Ocean, Missing (not played yet, but it's by Orchard so it can only be good), Wingedmene, Spellshard and Lolsidothaldremobine. |
I think you wander into dangerous ground by refusing to play any game that isn't strong in four fuzzy areas deemed to be important by game magazine reviewers. One of my favorite games of the current decade, Ace Attorney, is pretty poor in the "gameplay" field but still manages to be highly entertaining and fresh. Shadow of the Colossus has a pretty weak story, but tons of gamers think it's a work of art.
You can't just disregard things for being weak in one area. There are lots of OHR developers (and developers of other games) who will never be good artists or musicians but still produce quality work. Look at literature, even. Many of the great classics totally fail in certain areas that we consider integral today. Lots of early films have lousy endings and weird stage-like acting, but they're still great. Heck, consider Bob Dylan. He can barely hold a note, but he's arguably the greatest songwriter of our time.
There ARE no objective four elements that make up a game. Open your mind and take a chance! |
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Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| JSH357 wrote: | Sure, some traditional RPGs are humorous, some humorous games are traditional, etc, but only six of the games on the list are ENTIRELY based around humor or parodying OHR games.
18 out of the top 30 games are RPGs, standard or non-standard. That's a majority, and the fact that so many aren't is a testament to how flexible the engine is. |
Some people will never get over that not every RPG from communities filled with amateurs doing solo/small group projects is going to be Final Fantasy.
Seriously, if it comes out on the OHR, and it's fun, isn't that an accomplishment in itself? Who cares what "genre" it's in, it's a game to play, and it's a community that's active.
| Quote: | | No, it's more akin to someone saying they don't like something because it was painted. 3D is not a style any more than "paint" or "clay" and can have a million different variations. Disregarding them all off hand is terrible, senseless, and closed-minded. |
Thank you, I thought the world was crumbling for a minute.
| Quote: | | Then again, you could also say that humor games in general are of higher quality (or held to a lower standard) than traditional rpgs, in which case saying that their representation in the top 30 is reasonable. |
I'm sorry, but this is hogwash. There's a reason why people play these games; because they're fun and humorous. I've never lowered my standards because I knew I was playing a "joke" game.
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Calehay |
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JSH357
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 1705
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and if you think a community of amateur game developers is going to produce a lot of games with super-awesome pixel art, original scores, masterfully paced storytelling, intriguing dialogue and perfectly-crafted gameplay elements, have fun finding nothing.  Sorry, but even the alleged "great" indie games (Cave Story, 5 Days a Stranger, whatever) tend to be heavily flawed in a number of areas simply because of their lower production value. |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't think you should value anything in a game like "gameplay" over any other aspect of the game. It's all about how they work together. |
I see where you're coming from, but that just sounds like a high standard instead of an actual fact. Gameplay and graphics should indeed coexist, but it's going to be the game play that makes the game last more than a year. Look at Ocarina of Time. The game looked amazing the first time, but now it is severely outdated in the graphic's department, especially when compared to Twilight Princess, but the game play still holds up in extreme quality with today's game play.
With OHR games, not every body has the luxury of good graphics, which is why I consider gameplay more important for us because not everybody is named Fenrir-Lunaris, Friend, or Fyrewulf. Add to the fact that people can understand that you're a normal person that doesn't have artistic aptitude, and gameplay becomes an even bigger priority. Don't alienate people based on what you think are crap graphics, unless the graphics have ZERO effort into them and looks like a 5 year old drew it in MS Paint.
With that, there's a reason why Iblis didn't like Ends of the Earth 1, because its game play simply didn't hold up, despite being praised so much back when it was the top stuff.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN?
Last edited by Newbie_Power on Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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