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Hi guys (+ some random things that bother me)
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PlayerOne

Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 143
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:01 am Post subject:

I kind of know what you mean there, Rya, although I skipped about 7 pages of this thread, so I might have missed something. Darkmoor Dungeon is about the battles. They're deep and strategic and require some thought and planning. Some games aren't really about the battles, battles are just something that keeps interrupting the story, and you just want them to go away as quickly as possible. Personally, I'm quite happy with either style, but, yes sometimes I'm more in the mood for one than the other. Now to dig up the art thing again: bad art is a distinguishing feature of OHR. (Or maybe I should call it "naive" art, which isn't so negative?) In many ways, it is a good thing that the community is so forgiving in the art department, because it means that games get made, released and played that otherwise wouldn't. You don't need to be a pixel artist to make a game in the OHR. On the other hand, I guess it is probably quite off-putting to people coming in from outside the community, and it is good that there are several games with excellent art that we can point to, too.

Rya.Reisender
Snippy

Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:41 am Post subject:

Meh I just can't figure out Sword of Jade. I tried it again but for some reason I started with 15 days instead of 20 this time!? Does it get harder when you play it a second time? :-/ Also I went back to the town as suggested only to be engaged in battles I couldn't win and got a game over without having the possibility to save at all. Also training actual costs days omg. x-x And I always have to wait for the next day so the trainer appears again... I don't have hope to even get out of the town before the time limit runs out. ^^' For some reason I have the feeling this would only be enjoyable if I coded it myself and would know how to play it...

Newbie_Power

Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:20 am Post subject:

Quote:

@Newbie_Power
Any particular reason why you call me Kya now? Or is Kya another person? Maybe I didn't get a joke there. :x

Because I am not paying attention.

Quote:

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:53 am Post subject:
Wow, can you like stop putting words in my mouth I didn't say? I never said that the any OHR games suck, nor do I think so. For me "I won't play it" is no equivalent to "This game sucks" although for some weird reason many here think so.

The only reason you wouldn't play a game is because you are afraid it will suck. It's as simple as reading between the lines. You fear so many games that are made on the off-chance it is "average".

Quote:

The only reason why I asked if there are any really good new OHRRPGCE games around was because I was hoping for a reply like "Oh yeah, two years ago this guy named [insertname] popped up and he's a total genius, even better than Orchard, check out his game: [insertgame]".

His name is Moogle1, and he innovated Battles in Darkmoor Dungeon. He is a genius idol in my eyes.

Quote:

There are many people that just play games to have some fun, they don't wanna think too much while playing, their favorite games are usually RPGs with a fun battle system where you basically smash the "X" button all the time and that are basically only about damage and leveling up and buying better gears (sometimes also about how good your reaction is). Those games often have a major focus on grinding, but it's not boring because the battle system is fun. I'm in that group.

Then there are also many people that play games to accomplish something. They want to games that give them a "thinking challange". Games with many original puzzles. Game where you can only win the battles by thinking about your strategy and maybe retrying the battles multiple times until you figured them out. You're totally in that group.

So why is Boundless Ocean allowed to have a non-savetheworld story acceptable, yet Moogle1 cannot innovate battle systems to go above what people buy?

Darkmoor Dungeon is made for people that enjoyed boss battles from earlier games that actually required strategy. It even says in one of the readme files that it draws inspiration from famous boss battles.

Quote:

If I help someone with game balance I'm not the person to argue that his battles are too complicated. The first thing I'm always doing is to figure out what kind of game he wants to make before even starting to give all the heroes and monsters stats and skills and creating battle formations. Even if he wants to make a game that's really complicated I'd have no problem with helping him at all (in fact if I made the battles myself, I can't really say that they are too hard to understand anyways).

Considering you can't even beat the early enemies of Darkmoor Dungeon, you're the last person that should be helping people with complex battles.

Quote:

Hm, however I think for a game that focuses a lot on tactic and where you often have to "skip" certain characters, to pause the time on normal menus wasn't the perfect idea. Or if it really should be paused, there should be an additional command "Wait" (maybe even replace "Attack" with "Wait" and then put "Attack" as a second option).

The wait system should stay the way they are. If there was no wait system, fast enemies would be able to get multiple hits while the player is still choosing commands, which is important in Darkmoor Dungeon because there's at least one enemy that increases its speed, and some battles have lots of enemies.

Quote:

Humans have different opinions, thus different games are needed. You can't say "A game like Darkmoor Dungeon has better battles than a game like Grief", because it all goes down to personal preference.

I never played Grief, but if Grief has boss battles that are painfully easy and/or require little strategy, then Darkmoor Dungeon is factually better than it when it comes to boss battles.
_________________

TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN?

Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:40 am Post subject:

Quote:

And believe me I know the OHR engine well enough to know how hard it is to make a game. I designed battles like in Darkmoor Dungeon all the time (mainly for boss battles).

No, you didn't. You didn't make it far enough in Darkmoor to even make this claim. Clear the second floor and then we'll talk. The entire game takes thirty minutes if you know what you're doing.

Quote:

This is an awful thing to say. Battle systems where you can win just by choosing "Fight" all the time are a waste of time.

I disagree, although I knew you'd say that the moment I wrote it. This is fully a matter of personal preference.

No, it's not. There is no interactivity in a battle that you'll win no matter what you do. It is a waste of time. It seems to be the kind of waste of time you enjoy, but it's still a waste of time. To borrow an argument from you, if you can beat the game by sitting on the X button, you're essentially watching a movie, and at that point, why not just watch a movie?

Quote:

Darkmoor Dungeon has better battles than Grief. I can say that because it's my personal preference.
_________________

Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

Rya.Reisender
Snippy

Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:45 am Post subject:

Newbie_Power wrote:

His name is Moogle1, and he innovated Battles in Darkmoor Dungeon. He is a genius idol in my eyes.

First of Moogle1 isn't new and second he's only a genius in some aspects of game development.

Quote:

So why is Boundless Ocean allowed to have a non-savetheworld story acceptable, yet Moogle1 cannot innovate battle systems to go above what people buy?

I enjoy playing Boundless Ocean, but I didn't enjoy Darkmoor Dungeon out of said reasons. That's the difference.

Quote:

Considering you can't even beat the early enemies of Darkmoor Dungeon, you're the last person that should be helping people with complex battles.

Why are you quoting me where I explained why and then say the same thing again? I can help people with complex battles, but you don't have to believe me if you don't want to.

Moogle1 wrote:

Darkmoor Dungeon has better battles than Grief. I can say that because it's my personal preference.

You mean "I like the battles in Darkmoor Dungeon more".

Quote:

No, you didn't. You didn't make it far enough in Darkmoor to even make this claim. Clear the second floor and then we'll talk. The entire game takes thirty minutes if you know what you're doing.

I've thought of many possibilities of OHR battles already 5-6 years ago. Just because I never implemented them anywhere doesn't mean anything. Of course I can't know what 'good' ideas you think I didn't think about. Why not just tell me them and then I tell you if I thought of them before or not?

Quote:

Watching the battles is still fun and a movie is different because even if the battles on their own aren't tactical, you still need to get stronger, buy good enough equip and also try to safe up the MP to reach the next save point. I mean many RPGs don't have tactical battles except maybe boss battles and they still sell pretty good, don't they?

It really only has to do with personal preference. I gave enough reasons, read them.

Newbie_Power

Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:56 am Post subject:

Quote:

I enjoy playing Boundless Ocean, but I didn't enjoy Darkmoor Dungeon out of said reason. That's the difference.

I asked why it isn't allowed, and you answered with a subjective statement. With this, Darkmoor Dungeon is perfectly allowed to innovate battles, whether you like it or not, and you cannot convince others that it is not a good innovation just because you didn't enjoy it.

Quote:

I can help people with complex battles

You can help, but you won't make their battles better. You'll only emphasize leveling up and equipment alone. My game will have level ups and equipment, but I am going to take extra measures to make sure fully equipped people that have leveled up to the point where it becomes a chore to grind are still challenged on a Darkmoor Dungeon basis (I'll likely ask Moogle1 to help me on a lot of bosses and some random battles).

Quote:

He thought of Aegis' ability to increase defenses based on what attack you hit them with, and you didn't. If you had invented this kind of enemy before, you would know how to kill it.
_________________

TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN?

Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel

Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:08 am Post subject:

Rya.Reisender wrote:

Wow, can you like stop putting words in my mouth I didn't say? I never said that the any OHR games suck, nor do I think so. For me "I won't play it" is no equivalent to "This game sucks" although for some weird reason many here think so.

Read:

Newbie Power wrote:

You're the exact kind of person I'm complaining about. The OHRRPGCE games I'm trying to show people shine in game play, and Bloodlust looks fine for what it's trying to accomplish (though OOIA is still trying to improve his portraits, I believe).

Rya.Reisender in response to the above wrote:

...If the gameplay is awesome but the graphics suck, the game isn't good either....

And, though not OHR related:

Quote:

To clear that up. I don't like 3D games because they for one have a movable camera and for some reason I always get lost in those games.

You don't like any game with 3D graphics because they have a movable camera. Heaven forbid you have to move a camera.

But furthermore:

Quote:

The others all lack quality in at least one of those aspects.

Which you said confessing that you hadn't played all of them, merely looked at screenshots. I can understand you saying that the others didn't appeal to you graphics, but you said the games lacked quality in one of those aspects.
Besides, you can't tell me that if you didn't know what Arfenhouse was even remotely about, then a screenshot would not have enticed you. So, I don't believe in your whole tirade.

But to continue, I hope you can see how this was a true shock:

Moogle1 wrote:

Of the rest of the games, how many have you even played? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the six games you've listed constitute at least half of the listed games you've actually completed...

Rya.Reisender in response to Moogle1 wrote:

...But if the graphics still look average and there's no dialogue or anything that indicates a bad game and they are on the Top 30 I'll give them a try in the future.

Italicized quoting says it all.

Now, the most alarming quote from you:

Quote:

If the changes mean that the super talented people all left and now there are the default RPG maker users here with the only exception that they do their graphics on their own, then that's kinda sad. Because I originally liked the OHRRPGCE community because some members were just real geniuses.

But it doesn't matter too much, I'll keep playing the games that I enjoy and if I don't enjoy any OHR games I won't play any OHR games anymore, that won't really let me leave a community, though. I can still help others as I offered on the first page.

First of all, do you understand the term "default...users," is a really offensive thing to say? But now you're saying that the "default users" don't create games that are worth playing. You can't deny that, you made a blanket statement downplaying every game that has come or will come out by the people you consider "default users of the OHR."

So this is obviously false:

Quote:

Also please read clearly what I write before flaming me. I never insulted people that can't do good graphics anywhere...

But, just for reiteration of how ridiculous you are:

Quote:

It's actually quite interesting how the bad artists are all like "the graphics are good enough" and the rather good artists are like "I still need to improve a lot more". But I guess that's why the good artists are good. They always try to improve and are not satisfied with what they did so far.

Now, you're bashing people that don't have great art skills for releasing games and not sitting around all day pining about how they can make their graphics better. This really angered me, as you saw in my comment on that, but to continue on:

Quote:

Wait a moment, where did I say that any game isn't worth playing? For me "I won't play them because the screenshots aren't appealing" and "The game isn't worth playing" are totally different things.

Here's where you tried to cover up your mistake, or at least realized you were talking out of your ass.

Quote:

After rereading what I wrote there I don't even see where I said I'm not going to download games because of screenshots. I just wanted to know which his better games are because it wasn't so obvious on the screenshots.

Perhaps you can see where we got the impression, then.

Quote:

And believe me I know the OHR engine well enough to know how hard it is to make a game. I designed battles like in Darkmoor Dungeon all the time (mainly for boss battles).

So, did you osmose the battles from Darkmoor Dungeon, or have you been lying to us; you've completed the game.

Quote:

I did not want to give an impression like "Hey I wanna play some games, but oh wait they all suck, so I'm not playing any after all." but for some reason some people interpreted it as that.

Well, you did. Work on your social skills, then.

Quote:

Also I don't really like reading too much text in games (another reason why I often like amateur games more than professional ones).

Here you go again. Now you don't like all professional games as they have "too much text." If you had played every professional game in the world, I'm sure you'd notice that they're all quite individual.

Quote:

Go play Kingdom Hearts II then. Mindless entertainment is a waste of time. I question how you got through any RPG with this tactic.

Quote:

Then there are also many people that play games to accomplish something. They want to games that give them a "thinking challange". Games with many original puzzles. Game where you can only win the battles by thinking about your strategy and maybe retrying the battles multiple times until you figured them out. You're totally in that group.

So, can you elaborate as to why these games are bad? Of course, everything would be your opinion, but I'm not buying how mashing X is worth $50.

Quote:

This however is not related to how my game design abilities are.

Yes it is. Unless you make games you don't enjoy.

Quote:

Battle balance is not about just about giving stats, it's about using the battle system in a way that can be challenging and interesting to the player. If you don't understand the system, there is no chance you're going to make something worthwhile.

Quote:

Then don't state your opinions like facts.

Quote:

[On a sidenote: For some weird reason because of that some professional artists are attracted by me. They often show me their drawings and ask me to give my opinion. Then I give them a list of things I didn't like. Some told me I'm impressive because everyone else just tells them how wonderful their drawings are while I always point out all the bad things. Oookay...

Detailed criticism is worthless if the criticisms are ridiculous, which you've proven here that you're in the minority of this community that enjoys holding down the spacebar for 5 hours to level grind in battles where you can go read a book or whatever else. Perhaps that's liked elsewhere, but it's unlikely you're criticisms would be taken with any thought here.
_________________
Calehay

Rya.Reisender
Snippy

Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject:

Newbie_Power wrote:

Wait, I fully agree you on that and I don't think I said that Darkmoor Dungeon isn't allowed to innovate battles. I just said some things that made me not liking it.

Quote:

I disagree. Only because I don't like tactical battles doesn't mean I can't create them. Hell, there are people who work in the game development that don't even play games themselves (I know some from studies).
I could probably help you as good as Moogle1 could except with plotscripting where he's obviously way better.

Quote:

He thought of Aegis' ability to increase defenses based on what attack you hit them with, and you didn't. If you had invented this kind of enemy before, you would know how to kill it.

In fact I HAVE used these kinds of enemies before, you just need to create the elements "physical" and "magical" and then let the monster react on this element. Moogle1 actually did it slightly different with a third hidden enemy which is not so well hidden because you can see the effect damage number on him. ^^'

@Calehay
Yeah that's really complicated and stuff if you now try to put the sentences in a way it sounds negative. Just take my word that I didn't want to insult anyone and leave it at that. I personally should know best what I'm thinking. Why even argue against it? There no point to continue this.

And I already tried Sword of Jade, Darkmoor Dungeon, Bloodlust and OHR House since I started this thread, so I'm not ignoring all of those games either.

And I'm certainly not going to ignore a games that looks promising because the creator didn't seem very special.

Oh and I already finished Kingdom Heart II. =)

I don't like puzzle / tactic type of games too much, because I play games for fun and to relax, they shouldn't feel like work. I personally enjoy X mashing games way more and I mean I'm not the only one. I'm not saying that people who like the other type of games are bad, so you shouldn't say that people who like these times of games are bad either. A bit more tolerance of different viewpoints please.

Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel

Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject:

Rya.Reisender wrote:

@Calehay
Yeah that's really complicated and stuff if you now try to put the sentences in a way it sounds negative.

...I don't like puzzle / tactic type of games too much, because I play games for fun and to relax, they shouldn't feel like work. I personally enjoy X mashing games way more and I mean I'm not the only one. I'm not saying that people who like the other type of games are bad, so you shouldn't say that people who like these times of games are bad either. A bit more tolerance of different viewpoints please.

This is a nice slab of irony, all in the same post.

When did I ever say that people who liked one type of game was "bad." I asked why you thought games with puzzles and general thought were bad. You said that you didn't like this, so they're bad to you, right? I asked for your opinion.

Try reading my post next time.

And I twisted nothing. I posted what you posted, and made commentary on them. YOU, however, twisted my words to make it seem like I was attacking you.
_________________
Calehay

Newbie_Power

Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Only because I don't like tactical battles doesn't mean I can't create them.

I'm saying you can't create tactical battles because you can't overcome tactical battles, not because you don't like them.

Quote:

I don't care. If you can't play a game with strategy, then you cannot make a good strategy game, even if you design your enemies the same way.

Quote:

I don't like puzzle / tactic type of games too much, because I play games for fun and to relax, they shouldn't feel like work.

Vikings of Midgard is the perfect game for you. If Darkmoor Dungeon is giving you problems, just admit that it's too difficult for you instead of trying to make it come off as "not your taste".
_________________

TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN?

Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject:

Rya.Reisender wrote:

Newbie_Power wrote:

His name is Moogle1, and he innovated Battles in Darkmoor Dungeon. He is a genius idol in my eyes.

First of Moogle1 isn't new and second he's only a genius in some aspects of game development.

Ouch, man. I'm not perfect at everything. That's so harsh.

Quote:

Moogle1 wrote:

Darkmoor Dungeon has better battles than Grief. I can say that because it's my personal preference.

You mean "I like the battles in Darkmoor Dungeon more".

No, that's not what I mean (although that's also true).

Quote:

No, you didn't. You didn't make it far enough in Darkmoor to even make this claim. Clear the second floor and then we'll talk. The entire game takes thirty minutes if you know what you're doing.

Herein lies the real problem. Many of the battles in Darkmoor weren't possible five or six years ago. You wouldn't know that, though, because you haven't even gotten to the interesting ones.

Quote:

I mean many RPGs don't have tactical battles except maybe boss battles and they still sell pretty good, don't they?

"Sell pretty good" does not equate to "are pretty good." This is an independent game design community and I will thank you never to use that argument again.

Quote:

It really only has to do with personal preference. I gave enough reasons, read them.

Here's another glaring problem I have with your arguments. Every time YOU state a personal preference, you defend it by saying that it can't be wrong because it's a personal preference. Every time anyone else does, you disagree with it. You can't have it both ways.
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Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

Rya.Reisender
Snippy

Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:30 am Post subject:

@Calehay
Well for me, when I read what I wrote I think "nothing is wrong or offensive there" and then you comment below and try to explain why it's still offensive in the end, that's what I meant with "making it seem negative".

@Newbie_Power
Darkmoor Dungeon is not too difficult for me. And only because you can't finish a game doesn't mean you don't understand it to begin with. There's a really big logic gap here. I could make a game anytime that you can't beat, but I wouldn't claim that you don't understand it.

Moogle1 wrote:

Ouch, man. I'm not perfect at everything. That's so harsh.

Well you could also take it as a compliment. :p

Quote:

Herein lies the real problem. Many of the battles in Darkmoor weren't possible five or six years ago. You wouldn't know that, though, because you haven't even gotten to the interesting ones.

That's true.

Quote:

"Sell pretty good" does not equate to "are pretty good." This is an independent game design community and I will thank you never to use that argument again.

I disagree, these things are still corresponding. If a game sells pretty good it usually is pretty good. Although there are other factors like "marketing", the game quality still has a strong influence on how good a game gets sold.

Of course you can't compare amateur games with professional ones in this aspect because amateur games are too unknown. But for example Kingdom Hearts 2 (bash type) sell as good as Zelda (puzzle-type) although the marketing is quite equal. If you say those are too famous then how about Valkyrie Profile (bash) vs. Dragon Quarter (puzzle)?

Quote:

It's not like that. Everyone can have whatever opinion. You like puzzle / tactical games more and that's okay with me.

The Wobbler

Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:43 am Post subject:

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Rya.Reisender
Snippy

Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:56 am Post subject:

Surlaw wrote:

Sales do not equal quality, this is ridiculous. Games that sell well need either name brand recognition, a good advertising campaign, or a very cheap price. Lots of best selling games ARE good, but this is an illogical correlation to make.

I already said that marketing has also influece, but quality is not unrelated either.
More like: Sell Amount = Marketing x Quality

Quote:

Yes, you CAN compare amateur games to professional ones in this aspect, even ones in this community.

No, because even if amateur games are much better than professional ones, the professional ones will be sold more often than the amateur games, so it would be an unfair comparison. You probably thought of something different than me here.

Quote:

I have no idea what you're trying to say comparing Valkyrie Profile to Dragon Quarter.

Just to point out that games with simple controls like VP have at least as much fans as tactical / puzzle games, although the marketing wasn't very strong for both (because some here think tactical games are superior, just because they like them more).

Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:52 am Post subject:

Rya.Reisender wrote:

Quote:

I have no idea what you're trying to say comparing Valkyrie Profile to Dragon Quarter.

VP was underproduced and until the PSP remake was released the PSX version sold on eBay for $100. BOF:DQ just didn't sell well, despite being an excellent game. I still don't see what you're getting at.

VP is a fantastic game and I hasten to point out that the sequel is very much a tactical RPG in the vein of Dragon Quarter. It, too, was underproduced, though not to the extent of the original.
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