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Castle Paradox
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TMC
On the Verge of Insanity
Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 3240
Location: Matakana
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 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:22 am Post subject: More options for elemental resist merging formulas |
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Crossing-posting from the mailing list, in-case anyone here has any input -- asking for suggestions for items went splendidly. However I doubt people are too interested in this feature:
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I wanted to add some more detailed options to the equipment+hero
elemental resist merging formula. But like I said earlier, we can't
hope to cover every reasonable possibility -- eventually we'll add an
option to use a script in lieu of that -- so I don't want to
overcomplicate things. So I want to see what others think first:
-Add a new formula "Average of non-100% values". Takes the average of
everything which is not exactly 100%, use 99.9% if you want to average
in 100%.
-New formula "Most significant value": use the damage from one piece
of equipment, whichever is the "greatest" in some sense. But I'm not
sure how to pick it -- whichever is further away from 100%? Isn't 20%
(1/5) damage a more significant difference change than 200%? And what
about absorb?
| myself wrote: | Ah yes, it make a lot of sense for absorption (and immunity) to
override anything else. But another sensible way to decide between
resistances and weaknesses would be to choose the resist if the
reciprocal of the resist (< 1.0) damage is greater than the weakness
(> 1.0) damage. Or, there's no reason we can't add two formulas and
have it both ways. |
-Originally I wanted to add two parameters to all or most formulas to
add caps or decreasing returns on stacked damage. But it would be
cleaner to add a selectable second, independent formula for bounding
the result of the first formula, with upper bound and a lower bound
options. The 4 choices I thought up are:
*None
*Bound, ie. max(min(result, upper), lower)
*Approach in Limit, which uses a sigmoidal function (I would piece
together one with a linear section in the middle 50% or 67% or
something like that, so that you don't get annoying results like 100%
damage actually becoming 97%
*Decreasing Returns, which above (below) the upper (lower) bound has a
steadily flattening curve such the squareroot function, but still goes
to infinity.
-Also, what about duplicating the equipment merging stuff for merging
together the percent damage due to all the different elements, which
are currently just multiplied together? Again, I suggest it due to
concerns about excessive stacking.
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msw188
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 1041
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Where would all of these options be located? Would they be different for each element? Or each hero/enemy? I include enemy because I hope to one day be able to add elemental attributes to characters mid-battle.
I think that some of these options need to be explained a little more. I was a mathematician, and I'm still not 100% certain what you mean by some of these options:
*Approach in Limit - what are we approaching? A user-defined value? A user-defined percentage of whatever the original damage would have been? Do you mean this both above and below? So it would look something like a cube root function would if it were bounded? This is all very hazy to me. Would this affect even a single elemental effect? What would do more damage: (225%) or (150% AND 150%) or (450% AND 50%) if the "limit" were 225%?
*Decreasing Returns - same questions basically.
I think part of the problem is that I don't see how the bottom half of the post is related to elemental "merging". Also, where would these stacking concerns be set? One for each element? One for each hero? One for each attack?
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My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| msw188 wrote: | | Where would all of these options be located? Would they be different for each element? Or each hero/enemy? I include enemy because I hope to one day be able to add elemental attributes to characters mid-battle. |
The Elemental resist merging formula global. This only matters for heroes equipment right now. Yes, it could also matter for enemies when it becomes possible to apply elemental attributes in battle.
Making this formula hero-specific and enemy specific instead of global sounds monstrously confusing to me. Can you describe a specific situation where you would want a different combining formula for different situations?
To clarify, what this is all about is how to combine two or more weakness or strengths or absorbs for the same elemental.
For example. Lavaboy has a natural resistance to fire. Fire does 30% of normal damage to him. What happens when Lavaboy equips armor that alters his fire resistance? That is what this formula is about. |
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msw188
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 1041
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Can you describe a specific situation where you would want a different combining formula for different situations? |
I guess I can't, really. But I can think of situations where there should maybe be a different formula for different elements. It's conceivable that an "effect" or "cure" element should behave differently than "fire" when multiple pieces of equipment are involved.
| Quote: | | For example. Lavaboy has a natural resistance to fire. Fire does 30% of normal damage to him. What happens when Lavaboy equips armor that alters his fire resistance? That is what this formula is about. |
I'm sorry, but I still don't understand how a sigmoidal function relates to this. Is TMC saying that the "limit" would be parameterized by the "natural resistance/weakness", and that only equipment-based resistance/weakness would be altered by the function?
_________________
My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161
This website link is for my funk/rock band, Euphonic Brew:
www.euphonicbrew.com |
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TMC
On the Verge of Insanity
Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 3240
Location: Matakana
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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EDIT: James replied while I was writing this.
| msw188 wrote: | | Where would all of these options be located? Would they be different for each element? Or each hero/enemy? I include enemy because I hope to one day be able to add elemental attributes to characters mid-battle. |
Located in the same place as the current options, in the Battle System Options menu. Maybe you haven't noticed it.
These are global for all elements, heroes, and equipment. I thought about making it per-element, but figured that would just be too many options. Once we support using a script, you'll be able to make the result depend on the element, hero, item, enemy, and equipment slot.
We talked about modifying elemental resistances in-battle, and being able to target registers similar to the stun, etc., registers seems like the most consistent and flexible option. Modifying registers seems like am ugly hack to me, but hopefully they'll be improved somehow.
| Quote: | | *Approach in Limit - what are we approaching? A user-defined value? |
Yes, if I wasn't clear, the "two parameters" are user defined upper and lower values. Of course, we can add as many parameters as desired.
| Quote: | | So it would look something like a cube root function would if it were bounded? |
I think a C^1 function would be much better.
| Quote: |
Would this affect even a single elemental effect? |
Elemental effect? Huh?
| Quote: | | What would do more damage: (225%) or (150% AND 150%) or (450% AND 50%) if the "limit" were 225%? |
The suggestion was that the bounding function be applied to the result of the merging function, so all of those would be equal. However I can't tell what the result would be, because I didn't specify the function!
| Quote: | | Also, where would these stacking concerns be set? One for each element? One for each hero? One for each attack? |
Again, I was thinking a single global formula, with scripts for more complicated stuff. But if it's more useful than annoying/daunting, we can of course make it per element or something. Making it per attack is actually an interesting idea...
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