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Art Books OR How do I learn?
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Squall
is fantastic




Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 758
Location: Nampa, Idaho

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:46 am    Post subject: Art Books OR How do I learn? Reply with quote

Hey, I was just at my local book store and took aproximatly 2 hours trying to decide which books to get. I finally decided on two of the books from the "How to draw Manga" series, since I wan't to draw manga and anime and all that jazz. However, despite all these books that I have, I'm still no good.

The advice I've seen flying around here is to "draw, draw, draw." And while that's good and all, I've been (seriously) drawing for a couple of years, now, and I can't seem to improve.

So, to all you master artists out there, remember WAAAYY ack when you were at about the same skill as me. How were you able to get better simply by drawing alot? Are there certain things to practice? Specific neuances the be careful of? Common beginner pitfalls to avoid? Time saving tips? And what books, if any, did you find most helpful in your journey to good artisism?
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Komera




Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 711

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*tries to remember*

Wow... that was a long time ago. Now I feel ancient.

Unfortunately practice and observation are the only real answers that CAN be given. The practice is to sharpen hand-eye coordination (of course videogames will do the same), and the observation is to draw things the way you want them drawn. I should probably stress observation. The biggest problem most people have when drawing something (especially when drawing something they're looking at) is that they try drawing what they think they see instead of what they actually see. Artists face this problem, too, and it's difficult to find artists who have taught themselves this skill... much less a non-artist who have self taught themselves this. This is why there are art schools... no to teach people to make art, but to teach people to observe (or rather teach them a thousand small rules of real life to bypass teaching observation).

I should correct myself... the above is for traditional art schools. I didn't go to a traditional art school. I went to The Art Institute of Phoenix where 60% of my education was efficiently using computer software like Photoshop, Fractal Painter, Authorware, Director, 3DStudio Max, Sound Forge... just to name a few. 30% of my education was in hardware (professional sound equipment, lighting equipment, camera handeling, etc) and the last 10% was actual artsy stuff (paint, markers, scriptwriting...). My major was Multimedia... which is a more modern way of saying Jack of all trades.

The biggest downer of listening to someone like me talk about this is that learning rules, short cuts, guidelines, whatever for improving drawing is that all that stuff only takes you so far if you don't observe, pratice, and try to improve upon it... that and it gets depressing to think that some people have a natural talent for it, which basically means they start higher up on the scale than the average joe. Talent that isn't used is wasted away- of course. The really really good art you see pop up is just the end result of years of continuous drawing and much trial and error.

If I don't say it, someone else probably will. There are no short cuts. Only practice and observation. You don't always have to practice, but observe always. That's what makes an artist an artist.
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Grandtrain




Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not even close to being a master, but I find that books on basic body proportions and perspective helps a lot more than those that teaches manga/comic style.
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Squall
is fantastic




Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 758
Location: Nampa, Idaho

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes. I've been trying to get a body proportions book, but my mother frowns on the excessive use of boobies.

I'll have to get one when it's just me and my dad. One of the books I got today was about perspective, though, and it looks pretty useful.

Komera: Wow. Thanks for taking the time to write a well thought out, descriptive, and helpful post. So...Observation is a key aspect, eh? So to practice this, how does this sound? At random times of the day, I'll pick one normal object. Then I'll study it for a while, taking in all aspects, and when I get home, I'll try to draw it from memory. Does that sound like it would work?

Anyways, for that helpful post...I'm...I'm buying you a soda!
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Komera




Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 711

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it is a nice idea... it is easier to draw the object if it is in front of you.

This is the big reason why many artists (including myself) collect reference pictures. Reference pictures generally are not for copying exactly, but are for helping you out when you are attempting something similar or something with some element in it that is in a reference picture. About half of my collection of pictures is on the computer in the form of doujinshi scans (not because I'm trying to draw anime style, but because body postures that cause massive foreshortening is a problem I have, and some doujinshi artists handle it very well). I also have a massive collection of pictures that aren't doujinshi.

Of course drawing from a picture isn't quite like looking at the real thing, but subjects in pictures are guarenteed to sit still longer than people in real life (short of drawing a corpse). Of course pictures can keep people in poses they would never be able to maintain in life and are only in the posture because they are MOVING...

Speaking of which...

I suggest getting yourself some Eadweard Mybridge books. Or at least looking for websites with his photos. He's the guy who proved that horses lift all four feet off the ground while running. After proving that, he went on to photograph... well... EVERYTHING. There are two books in current print called The Human Figure In Motion and Animals In Motion, together they contain about 70% of all the motion pictures Mybridge ever took (the other 30% are either too degraded or have been lost to time). Individually the books are rather pricey, and together you're spending something akin to a small fortune. With these two books in hand, you would NEVER want for another body posture book. Animators frequently consult Mybridge photos... I heard one game company bypassed getting motion capture by animating their characters according to Mybridge photos.
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Komera




Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 711

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW- I'll take Pepsi Blue.
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Shadowiii
It's been real.




Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 2460

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed "How to Draw Manga" is mostly for people who already know how to draw and want to improve.

Might I recommend "Magna Mania" and "Anime Mania"? I don't recommend buying them but check them out from a library or see them in a bookstore...Manga Mania had THE BEST anime eye tutorial I have seen...

Plus, there are tons of internet resources.

BUT. If you feel like you can't draw at all, take the first step: draw what you see. Seriously, this helped me a LOT. In anime, even though some proportions are exaggurated, the basic facial features and shape tends to be realistic. Find something you like and copy (DO NOT TRACE). Pick elements you like out of certain things. Then try to put them in your copied picture (hmm..I like these eyes...and this mouth...). Guess what. You're drawing! w00t. Ha ha ha! Oookay...
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Rolling Stone
Bastard Gunslinger




Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mom gave me my first artist's anatomy book. Then it got taken away in art class. How's that for irony? An art class that doesn't promote art. They never gave the book back either. They also took away one that was about animal anatomy. If I had been gettin' off to pictures of cow udders and horses asses, I had problems that confiscation could never solve.
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Royal




Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 61
Location: Stockholm Swe

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is how it was for me;
From like 9-15 I just swiped anything I could lay my hands upon (I don't mean trace) just look at a picture and try to imitate what I saw, this goes from anime stuff and real photos. I learned alot from this since I constantly picked up small stuff that is good to have knowledge about, proportions colors and how designs are mostly done. Even though I didn't know there were rules for this I had a hunch about what was apropriate and what wasn't. Of course these works have no artistic credibility since it was just, swipes. But I think I learned alot from it.
Up until this I really had no proper artclasses read any artbooks, and for that matter didn't thought that I needed any, god I was mistaken...heh.

At 16 and forward I started to create original characters and it looked like crap for the most time. I also started to generize myself into the manga genre which I think at this point was a pretty big mistake..don't get me wrong manga style at it's best is very beautiful but still it all contains of simple forms and everything looks about the same (leaving out backdrops and mechas) This gave me a hard time when I wanted to make detailed illustrations and really try to express realistic coloring, since I had made cellshading for so long. So the lesson learned with this is that if you start out just drawing manga stuff you'll easily stay with it and don't pursue your own style which is very important if you want to actually get better and get recognized.

Up to the point where I started my education as a 3d animator I still hadn't read any artbooks or had proper training but that changed when I was introduced to lifedrawing, which I recommend everyone to go to, or if you can't just start sketching ppl on the bus or in class. Another valuable resource is the net, start using reference material (google fineart.sk) and check out how all the good artisits do composition or coloring, it's been very valuable to me and I'm sure it will also be valuable to you. Try to break down pieces when you look at them, participate alot in forums and try to actually give critiques, when you learn to spot others mistakes you are sure to start spotting your own.
It's a shame that your mother can't let you buy a book becuz it got boobies in it, I wouldn't cope with that, it's not like youre buying a porn magazine.

Well that's how I started to figure out one thing and another and I assure you that you can progress really fast if you want just set your mind to it.
To show you an example I'll post a pic I made 1 year ago (before school) and one done almost excactly 1 year after (heh even is it's really easy to spot several mistakes in the 2002 image too Happy.
Keep on working and post youre stuff here I'll try to help out as much as I can. Happy

2001



2002

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Rolling Stone
Bastard Gunslinger




Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never did need art classes or books though, maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe I just suck. I always prefer to fiddle around with a pencil until something looks good, and when it looks good I keep doing what made it look good and stop doing what didn't help or got in the way. Although it depends on the person when it comes to classes and books, anatomy books are absolutely requisite for a beginning artist. After awhile you'll likely develop your own style for drawing anatomy as well which defies real anatomy just enough to enhance a characters personality without quite looking freakish. Anyone who sees my character sketches will see oversized hands and feet because that looks really cool in fight scenes, more like someone's being hit with a sledge hammer than a fist. At this point I'm afraid to refer to anatomy books again though, as I would probably find that, while my proportions look neat, they're ridiculously off of reality's idea of what body parts look like.

I think my most major artistic influence has been Leonardo Da Vinci. He's not my favorite artist, but he's all of my favorite artists favorite artist. My favorite character designing in a playstation game is Vagrant Story which just monkeys Leonardo and adds bondage gear.

P.S. If you can't get an anatomy book, there's always internet porn.. Yeah I know what you're saying, but if you're mom catches you doing that just tell her that you needed SOMETHING to keep you from becoming an artistic black hole.
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Misteroo
Castle Guard



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 23
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. I'd have to say that my experience is a lot like Royal's. I first started off about 10 years ago, when I started drawing my own renditions of video game characters--in which I'd take a look at a small picture in Nintendo Power and try to draw what I saw. They were kinda accurate, but they each had flaws. Because I was young back then, I didn't even realize that I should've been focusing on the style and picking up on what they did. Because of that, it was just an aimless copying process.

I kept doing that for about 2 or 3 years. Eventually I had enough of that and just gave up for about 2 years. At that point I was 15 or 16, and joined up with AKWare. Since then I started drawing again, but was astonished to find that my best efforts were complete and total crap.



...THAT is my horrible failure OHR game. Upon finding out how embarrassing that was, I gave up on it and made the Arfenhouse trilogy, and instead just started practicing drawing. My artwork still sucked, but was gradually becoming LESS suck-ful.

At that point I started focusing on analyzing anatomy and proportion--knowing what constructs a body. I referred to a few online references I had found, namely Polykarbon, and gradually things started to even out a little bit more. About a year and a half ago I finally came up with this. Not too bad. Currently, I have a picture in progress (which isn't all too bad, I guess) but it's actually on hold for a commission I'm working on for someone.

Until about 2 months ago, I never really looked at an anatomy book. However, those are, by far, the most important things that can help you--by not doing that I paid the price of going around in circles again and again and again. I do not recommend going straight for "How to draw Manga"--it's a rather foolish approach. You'll gain FAR more knowledge and experience from drawing things from real life than you would from trying to copy a specific cartoon style. Instead, try to learn how to draw things casually--it'll be far more rewarding, as there are already way too many manga artists out there.

Practice is another issue. I've met 13 year olds that have made pieces that can incinerate all of my works combined because they didn't screw around like I did--and instead focused and practiced every day. Always be sure to practice--and ask for/accept any criticism you can get, good and bad. If there's a flaw in your picture, try to think of a way of preventing yourself from making the same mistake again.

So, if anything, try to become familiar with learning the basic concepts of anatomy and proportion and always remember to practice.
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Rinku




Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 690

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my history of learning to draw is the same as royal's except that i stopped drawing when i was 12, spent about 10 years when i didn't draw anything, and then started drawing again at 22. so i still have a bit of catching up to do, i think i'm as good at drawing now as i would have been at 14 had i not stopped drawing at 12.
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Rolling Stone
Bastard Gunslinger




Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's rough dude. I never stopped, but there was a time when I didn't take it seriously, I only saw it as a tool to illustrate funny ideas. I think that's because I had friends who were infinitely better than I was, and I always got frustrated when I found that my drawings didn't have 'personality' I suppose. Of course these friends weren't so much good artists as technically perfect when it came to copying. They were as afraid as I was, but they were afraid when it came to drawing their own ideas. I remember my friend Cha was reluctant and shy when it came to showing me his own character designs, even though he was eager to show off his line for line copies of the half naked girl from Ghost in the Shell posters. I think that anime is something that helped, because I learned that you didn't need to represent reality in your art, rather it was more fun to stylize it into your own idea of what would look cool. I suppose I started becoming what you could (or couldn't) call a good artist about the time I got out of high school. Until then I was the protoplasms and cavemen that would one day evolve into a good artist.

I think my 5 year old sister is a better artist than me though (Age considered of course), because her drawings have more personality than mine ever did. Even where most people would interpet something as a child's scribblings, anyone who knows anything about art can see her characters emotions clearly on their faces. I think my drawings are aesthetically neat, they look cool and stylish, but my little sisters are clear representations of the mood of a given situation. She's the kind of person who shouldn't go to art class though. She has her own methods of illustration, and learning rigid techniques would only trap the emotions in a deeper shell. By the way, have you ever heard someone go this in depth on evaluating a five year old's crayon sketches? You never will again either.
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Cardcaptor Stacey
Mistress of the Clow




Joined: 24 Feb 2003
Posts: 72
Location: With Mr.Children

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After years of torture (and I say torture because my anime pics were horrible) drawing anime/manga on paper I have developed my own technique. I don't use any books or anything. Just keep practising. I took my anime pictures to school and I get lots of response.
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Sephyroth
Renegade Rebel Redmage
Class A Minstrel



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 644
Location: Schmocation

PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see... I myself have been working on developing my manga art skills.. well... I at least have been working on my character art skills since around first grade (back in those days my idea of art was stick figures with block clothing and cheaply drawn hair). I'd say I've developed my manga art style around two years ago with the failure of a manga that was known as "Final Fallacies". I think it just takes a lot of practice and observation (unfortunately, my observation stage was mainly based around the DBZ style, and it took me a while to get out of that No, no, no...').
Haven't been near a scanner lately so I couldn't really show you guys any recent pics... asides from my avatar. That's my attempt to copy the FFT nose-less style that was made a week ago...

Oh.. and I've noticed there's a lot of stuff in how-to-draw books involving having to draw a bunch of messy frames and circles and lines and stuff. Doesn't just having to think about doing all that stuff make you want to kill yourself? Fortunately, I've never done the frames thing in my life (or I might have killed myself already. You know me).
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